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I don't follow your conclusion here. So... you don't think that there are systemic problems worth correcting? Or you think there are, but you don't want to be

I don't follow your conclusion here. So... you don't think that there are systemic problems worth correcting? Or you think there are, but you don't want to because the disadvantaged should just be resilient instead? It's one thing to say that there are alternative therapies to pulling down statues and burning shit in the street. It's rather another to reject the goals of a movement because you don't like their tactics.

kiba 6y ago
I don't think that's what he's arguing. Systematic problems are worth correcting and shouldn't be ignored. The problem is that systematic problems requiring systematic solution doesn't provide a framework for individual behavior in the meantime. You can't wait for problems to get fixed. Even if you're working hard or contributing money to those that are working to get problems fixed, you're still stuck in whatever circumstances you are in. It may be a long time for these problems to be fixed, in the meantime we're the heroes(or villains) of our own stories.
- ceh123 6y ago
  Yup, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Systemic critiques are absolutely necessary to improve society, but you can't live every day only in a systemic mindset because that will inevitably move your locus of control much farther outside yourself.
  - rednerrus 6y ago
    This is what I was trying to get at with my original post.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
nxc18 6y ago
The way leftists approach fixing systemic issues is fundamentally incompatible with actually changing anything. The smart leftists work towards positive change by doing disgusting things like engaging in compromise and working with people who aren’t ideologically pure; when they do such things they inadvertently reveal themselves to be something far more horrible, like a liberal or a progressive-but-not-progressive-enough. Can you explain what exactly you want to see and how burning anything or tearing down statues accomplishes that? As far as I can tell, all it accomplished was status quo, with a lot more people feeling threatened by leftists.
- TameAntelope 6y ago
  Taboo on the word "leftists". You're otherizing, I don't think it's helpful. I don't see the people you're referring to as being in the driver's seat of any meaningful change that's actually being considered in a way that might actually lead to implementation.
  - nxc18 6y ago
    Yes, exactly, they are not in the drivers seat because they systematically choose not to be in the drivers seat. I don’t know if its necessarily wrong to otherize the people who smash windows in my community, spray paint graffiti on the walls (Land Back! Pigs must die! Kill cops! Rent is theft!). If anything, I think they have chosen to make themselves the enemy of the community they live in by refusing to productively engage with it. Its really frustrating seeing people who purport to want progress actively destroy community will to make progress on things. They make things a lot harder for the people who are trying to make good changes happen.
    - TameAntelope 6y ago
      I think it's always wrong to otherize, though I get your frustration. It's fairly interesting to me to see this relatively small group of people causing fairly limited damage be the focus of so much attention, rather than the ideas and concepts of more influential (and therefore relevant) social justice advocates. It's noisy and grabs your attention yes, but I think it's a mistake to think of it as representative of anything other than the specific people causing the damage.
- watwut 6y ago
  If left wing does something wrong, it is left wing fault. If right wrong does something wrong, or is left wing fault because left made them do it. But, it is never the case that right made left do something bad.
- MisterBastahrd 6y ago
  They're doing a damned poor job of being threatening given how popular they've been on a national political level in the US.

kiba 6y ago

I don't think that's what he's arguing. Systematic problems are worth correcting and shouldn't be ignored. The problem is that systematic problems requiring systematic solution doesn't provide a framework for individual behavior in the meantime. You can't wait for problems to get fixed. Even if you're working hard or contributing money to those that are working to get problems fixed, you're still stuck in whatever circumstances you are in. It may be a long time for these problems to be fixed, in the meantime we're the heroes(or villains) of our own stories.

ceh123 6y ago
Yup, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Systemic critiques are absolutely necessary to improve society, but you can't live every day only in a systemic mindset because that will inevitably move your locus of control much farther outside yourself.
- rednerrus 6y ago
  This is what I was trying to get at with my original post.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

nxc18 6y ago

The way leftists approach fixing systemic issues is fundamentally incompatible with actually changing anything. The smart leftists work towards positive change by doing disgusting things like engaging in compromise and working with people who aren’t ideologically pure; when they do such things they inadvertently reveal themselves to be something far more horrible, like a liberal or a progressive-but-not-progressive-enough. Can you explain what exactly you want to see and how burning anything or tearing down statues accomplishes that? As far as I can tell, all it accomplished was status quo, with a lot more people feeling threatened by leftists.

TameAntelope 6y ago
Taboo on the word "leftists". You're otherizing, I don't think it's helpful. I don't see the people you're referring to as being in the driver's seat of any meaningful change that's actually being considered in a way that might actually lead to implementation.
- nxc18 6y ago
  Yes, exactly, they are not in the drivers seat because they systematically choose not to be in the drivers seat. I don’t know if its necessarily wrong to otherize the people who smash windows in my community, spray paint graffiti on the walls (Land Back! Pigs must die! Kill cops! Rent is theft!). If anything, I think they have chosen to make themselves the enemy of the community they live in by refusing to productively engage with it. Its really frustrating seeing people who purport to want progress actively destroy community will to make progress on things. They make things a lot harder for the people who are trying to make good changes happen.
  - TameAntelope 6y ago
    I think it's always wrong to otherize, though I get your frustration. It's fairly interesting to me to see this relatively small group of people causing fairly limited damage be the focus of so much attention, rather than the ideas and concepts of more influential (and therefore relevant) social justice advocates. It's noisy and grabs your attention yes, but I think it's a mistake to think of it as representative of anything other than the specific people causing the damage.
watwut 6y ago
If left wing does something wrong, it is left wing fault. If right wrong does something wrong, or is left wing fault because left made them do it. But, it is never the case that right made left do something bad.
MisterBastahrd 6y ago
They're doing a damned poor job of being threatening given how popular they've been on a national political level in the US.