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> “Only help others if you think they deserve it” is rather obviously not a precept that’s the basis of Christian charity. No, only help people if they didn't

by Rule35 6y ago

> “Only help others if you think they deserve it” is rather obviously not a precept that’s the basis of Christian charity. No, only help people if they didn't bring it on themselves and would probably be able to receive the help. There's no sense wasting a bunch of help on a junkie who won't use it, but once he's off the smack and willing to receive help then maybe. But only if a needy mother's kids don't need it more. > Charity is voluntary. Right, but you present it as an obligation. These people aren't being funded so you could just do it yourselves. > About 35% of adults are obese, and in almost all instances that’s due to their behavioral choices. Do we send a third of the population “to the back of the line”, or refuse to pay for their medical treatment? Oh boy, you're gonna hate this. Yes. And we already do. Try asking for an organ while you're a smoker. They give that sucker to someone who can use it and will take care of it. What misguided sense of honor could force you to dispense treatment in the order people arrived in versus their need/ability to receive?

foldr 6y ago
>No, only help people if they didn't bring it on themselves and would probably be able to receive the help. You're suggesting that this is what Christianity has to say on the subject of charity? >Right, but you present [charity] as an obligation. No, I didn't. I pointed out that voluntary charitable contributions would be a good way to resolve the tension that the OP feels between 'justice' and 'mercy'. >Oh boy, you're gonna hate this. Yes. And we already do. In the case of organs there's an inherently limited supply, since people have to donate voluntarily and all sorts of other conditions have to be met. It's not as if we're throwing away livers rather than give them to alcoholics. I'm sure you must be aware that we do treat all kinds of obesity-related conditions – and at great expense. In the case of HIV treatment, it's largely just a question of paying for drugs which can easily be manufactured in the required quantity. But I guess at this point I'm wondering what your actual position is. Are you in favor of conditionally refusing treatment to HIV patients depending on the manner in which they contracted the virus? If so, why not just come out and say it? And if not, what exactly are you getting at?
- Rule35 6y ago
  > In the case of organs there's an inherently limited supply, since people have to donate voluntarily and all sorts of other conditions have to be met. Yes, and charity spending on one person necessarily takes away from spending on another too. To support someone whose choice of behavior impacted them means you can't support someone who was injured entirely through 'acts of god'. > It's not as if we're throwing away livers rather than give them to alcoholics. No, but but they do go to the back of the line. Especially if they still drink. > I'm sure you must be aware that we do treat all kinds of obesity-related conditions – and at great expense. Sure. But thankfully we prioritize them to below children with heart defects, and non-obese adults with the same conditions. > Are you in favor of conditionally refusing treatment to HIV patients depending on the manner in which they contracted the virus? No more than I am for prioritizing treatment downward for everyone whose injuries were self-inflicted. That's only fair for the people whose were not.
  - foldr 6y ago
    I don't think you've really answered the last question. At the moment, in the US, how you contracted HIV makes no difference to your access to treatment. Do you think this should change or not? As to the rest, you're obviously aware that in general, obese adults are not deprioritized for treatment as compared to non-obese adults.
    - Rule35 6y ago
      > I don't think you've really answered the last question That's pretty much a textbook example of sealioning. Why are you so anxious? > HIV Are they asking for charity? If not then their circumstances shouldn't be relevant, just their ability to pay. > you're obviously aware that in general, obese adults are not deprioritized for treatment as compared to non-obese adults. They are. If you're up for a contested treatment (a rare organ, a diagnostic machine that's always in use) you're given a score that represents your health and ability to benefit. Obesity isn't a total black mark but it absolutely is considered. However, we don't consider why you're fat, fat is just a health risk and we recognize that and don't waste effort where it won't be rewarded.

by Rule35 6y ago

foldr 6y ago

>No, only help people if they didn't bring it on themselves and would probably be able to receive the help. You're suggesting that this is what Christianity has to say on the subject of charity? >Right, but you present [charity] as an obligation. No, I didn't. I pointed out that voluntary charitable contributions would be a good way to resolve the tension that the OP feels between 'justice' and 'mercy'. >Oh boy, you're gonna hate this. Yes. And we already do. In the case of organs there's an inherently limited supply, since people have to donate voluntarily and all sorts of other conditions have to be met. It's not as if we're throwing away livers rather than give them to alcoholics. I'm sure you must be aware that we do treat all kinds of obesity-related conditions – and at great expense. In the case of HIV treatment, it's largely just a question of paying for drugs which can easily be manufactured in the required quantity. But I guess at this point I'm wondering what your actual position is. Are you in favor of conditionally refusing treatment to HIV patients depending on the manner in which they contracted the virus? If so, why not just come out and say it? And if not, what exactly are you getting at?

Rule35 6y ago
> In the case of organs there's an inherently limited supply, since people have to donate voluntarily and all sorts of other conditions have to be met. Yes, and charity spending on one person necessarily takes away from spending on another too. To support someone whose choice of behavior impacted them means you can't support someone who was injured entirely through 'acts of god'. > It's not as if we're throwing away livers rather than give them to alcoholics. No, but but they do go to the back of the line. Especially if they still drink. > I'm sure you must be aware that we do treat all kinds of obesity-related conditions – and at great expense. Sure. But thankfully we prioritize them to below children with heart defects, and non-obese adults with the same conditions. > Are you in favor of conditionally refusing treatment to HIV patients depending on the manner in which they contracted the virus? No more than I am for prioritizing treatment downward for everyone whose injuries were self-inflicted. That's only fair for the people whose were not.
- foldr 6y ago
  I don't think you've really answered the last question. At the moment, in the US, how you contracted HIV makes no difference to your access to treatment. Do you think this should change or not? As to the rest, you're obviously aware that in general, obese adults are not deprioritized for treatment as compared to non-obese adults.
  - Rule35 6y ago
    > I don't think you've really answered the last question That's pretty much a textbook example of sealioning. Why are you so anxious? > HIV Are they asking for charity? If not then their circumstances shouldn't be relevant, just their ability to pay. > you're obviously aware that in general, obese adults are not deprioritized for treatment as compared to non-obese adults. They are. If you're up for a contested treatment (a rare organ, a diagnostic machine that's always in use) you're given a score that represents your health and ability to benefit. Obesity isn't a total black mark but it absolutely is considered. However, we don't consider why you're fat, fat is just a health risk and we recognize that and don't waste effort where it won't be rewarded.