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> Freedom of movement, sure, but that is separate from Schengen. True, I meant Bosman not Schengen. > And I think dismissing light entertainment as not being

> Freedom of movement, sure, but that is separate from Schengen. True, I meant Bosman not Schengen. > And I think dismissing light entertainment as not being culture is pointlessly elitist I am sorry if it came out that way, what I meant is that entertainment is more tied to personality and familiarity than culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a social group" because those things are usually misrepresented in a fictional show made to entertain the general public. I love Southpark because I love that kind of harsh sarcasm, but I know it's not a perfect honest to god representation of the US society and I usually also don't get all the references, because you can't spread pop culture to other cultures or generations by simply citing or mocking them. you have to go deeper than that. > but close ties does not translate immediately to the extent of shared culture diffusing through populations I think it does on a basic level. All of the countries on the west side share very similar views about worker rights, welfare state, public education and healthcare, women rights, minorities' rights, democracy, etc. etc. French is the language of diplomacy because French invented modern diplomacy when they were an important global empire and imposed their language on everybody else (and the reason why until the 80s in Italian schools French was the primary foreign language - I had to study it in elementary school from 1982 to 1987) For the same reason German is #1 mother tongue language in Europe, beating English. Think about religion in Europe: 75% are Christians,or at least they claim to be. I am an atheist so I have no horse in the race, but that happened through centuries of close relationships (and wars) Think about Europe before and after the USSR collapsed. If we compare western Europe to former eastern block countries we will find fundamental differences and that's completely normal (and sometimes scary), because we have been separated for a long time and we are still compensating for that time.

vidarh 6y ago
> s more tied to personality and familiarity than culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a social group" because those things are usually misrepresented in a fictional show made to entertain the general public. That entertainment often misrepresents traits does not mean that it itself does not form part of those traits. E.g. nobody would suggest Monthy Python accurately reflects British culture, but Monthy Python is part of British culture, and in many ways shines a mirror to it that most people won't get unless they've lived here for a while. The more those things are shared and become a common heritage the more they come to form a shared culture. Shared fairy tales is a good example. > All of the countries on the west side share very similar views about worker rights, welfare state, public education and healthcare, women rights, minorities' rights, democracy, etc. etc. All of which had to do with extensive organising across borders for many decades, often out of necessity due to extensive repression (e.g. Marx had to flee both Prussia and France). If that is the level of ties you talk of, then sure, but that is a far more complex process, and it took a couple of centuries for Europe to harmonise on those issues despite that extensive effort. If anything this is a good example of my point of how slow this process is. The other examples you give are examples of diffusion of culture over far longer (centuries to millennia) periods, so hardly makes the point. > If we compare western Europe to former eastern block countries we will find fundamental differences and that's completely normal (and sometimes scary), because we have been separated for a long time and we are still compensating for that time. Those differences did not come into being with World War II. They were pronounced for centuries before that. The point is not that contact does not matter. Of course it does. It is that diffusion of culture takes a long time, but shared cultural heritage - including light entertainment is an important part of that, because you're never going to understand someone perfectly without sharing their cultural references, and they go all the way back to childhood. All those things you mention matter, but spreading them are easier the more people understand the same terms and references, and laugh at the same things, and know the same stories, and have heard the same music. Heck, you pointed to the EU, whose anthem was chosen in part because it is a piece of music that is near universally known, and as such provides a reference to a shared heritage.
- africanboy 6y ago
  > The more those things are shared and become a common heritage the more they come to form a shared culture. I only argue that we already had that kind of sharing. I know about Monthy Python since late 80s, I was barely more thank a kid. The article talks specifically about Netflix, an American paid subscription service whose primary objective is "growth" and "profit". With less than 40 million accounts in Europe over a population of 700 million people it's barely relevant. Maybe it's relevant among youngsters and parents using it as a nanny for their little children, but a large part of the population ignore it completely and, frankly, the catalogue does not contain anything barely resembling the cultural impact of Monthy Python. I can speak about the Italian material: they are airing shows and movies made for the Italian TV (low quality, low budget, same old actors' faces everywhere, nothing that we haven't already seen somewhere else, it's basically recycling garbage) or recent cinema productions made buy the "usual suspects" to get the government's funds (that usually go to the same "usual suspect" aforementioned) That's completely missing the point about what the "Italian culture" could look like. There were a few gems before, but now that the big guys are in, forget about it, they are going to air only those things that they own the rights for, so now they are being paid two times. There is no Fellini, Antonioni, Leone, Bertolucci, Fulci, Bava, Argento, but there is this shit https://www.netflix.com/it/title/81304753 https://www.netflix.com/it/title/81304753 a movie so bad that even bad movies are ashamed of being in the same category. The other scary phenomenon is that they are conflating the ratings, every movie on Netflix must be great according to Netflix, so "Piccolo grande amore" has rating around 90% even though Raoul Bova himself doesn't want to talk about it. It was considered utter tash, off and online, until Netflix picked it up. If everything is good, nothing is good. That's the opposite of culture. > you're never going to understand someone perfectly without sharing their cultural references, and they go all the way back to childhood Exactly. Hence my point about not completely getting the references in Southpark. I've never heard of them as a kid, they mean nothing to me, even though I know what they are. It's not Netflix that is going to do that, it's internet that did that. Netflix is only one player and who knows for how much longer, now that major studios are creating their own platforms. Wanna talk about shared cultural heritage? Disney+ with all the Disney movies in catalog has much better chances of spreading it.

vidarh 6y ago

> s more tied to personality and familiarity than culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a social group" because those things are usually misrepresented in a fictional show made to entertain the general public. That entertainment often misrepresents traits does not mean that it itself does not form part of those traits. E.g. nobody would suggest Monthy Python accurately reflects British culture, but Monthy Python is part of British culture, and in many ways shines a mirror to it that most people won't get unless they've lived here for a while. The more those things are shared and become a common heritage the more they come to form a shared culture. Shared fairy tales is a good example. > All of the countries on the west side share very similar views about worker rights, welfare state, public education and healthcare, women rights, minorities' rights, democracy, etc. etc. All of which had to do with extensive organising across borders for many decades, often out of necessity due to extensive repression (e.g. Marx had to flee both Prussia and France). If that is the level of ties you talk of, then sure, but that is a far more complex process, and it took a couple of centuries for Europe to harmonise on those issues despite that extensive effort. If anything this is a good example of my point of how slow this process is. The other examples you give are examples of diffusion of culture over far longer (centuries to millennia) periods, so hardly makes the point. > If we compare western Europe to former eastern block countries we will find fundamental differences and that's completely normal (and sometimes scary), because we have been separated for a long time and we are still compensating for that time. Those differences did not come into being with World War II. They were pronounced for centuries before that. The point is not that contact does not matter. Of course it does. It is that diffusion of culture takes a long time, but shared cultural heritage - including light entertainment is an important part of that, because you're never going to understand someone perfectly without sharing their cultural references, and they go all the way back to childhood. All those things you mention matter, but spreading them are easier the more people understand the same terms and references, and laugh at the same things, and know the same stories, and have heard the same music. Heck, you pointed to the EU, whose anthem was chosen in part because it is a piece of music that is near universally known, and as such provides a reference to a shared heritage.

africanboy 6y ago
> The more those things are shared and become a common heritage the more they come to form a shared culture. I only argue that we already had that kind of sharing. I know about Monthy Python since late 80s, I was barely more thank a kid. The article talks specifically about Netflix, an American paid subscription service whose primary objective is "growth" and "profit". With less than 40 million accounts in Europe over a population of 700 million people it's barely relevant. Maybe it's relevant among youngsters and parents using it as a nanny for their little children, but a large part of the population ignore it completely and, frankly, the catalogue does not contain anything barely resembling the cultural impact of Monthy Python. I can speak about the Italian material: they are airing shows and movies made for the Italian TV (low quality, low budget, same old actors' faces everywhere, nothing that we haven't already seen somewhere else, it's basically recycling garbage) or recent cinema productions made buy the "usual suspects" to get the government's funds (that usually go to the same "usual suspect" aforementioned) That's completely missing the point about what the "Italian culture" could look like. There were a few gems before, but now that the big guys are in, forget about it, they are going to air only those things that they own the rights for, so now they are being paid two times. There is no Fellini, Antonioni, Leone, Bertolucci, Fulci, Bava, Argento, but there is this shit https://www.netflix.com/it/title/81304753 https://www.netflix.com/it/title/81304753 a movie so bad that even bad movies are ashamed of being in the same category. The other scary phenomenon is that they are conflating the ratings, every movie on Netflix must be great according to Netflix, so "Piccolo grande amore" has rating around 90% even though Raoul Bova himself doesn't want to talk about it. It was considered utter tash, off and online, until Netflix picked it up. If everything is good, nothing is good. That's the opposite of culture. > you're never going to understand someone perfectly without sharing their cultural references, and they go all the way back to childhood Exactly. Hence my point about not completely getting the references in Southpark. I've never heard of them as a kid, they mean nothing to me, even though I know what they are. It's not Netflix that is going to do that, it's internet that did that. Netflix is only one player and who knows for how much longer, now that major studios are creating their own platforms. Wanna talk about shared cultural heritage? Disney+ with all the Disney movies in catalog has much better chances of spreading it.