6 ms·

Well the life of the average Chinese citizen has improved substantially in the last 30 years, no Western country can really say that.

echelon 6y ago
That's because the West already made those improvements and there are no longer any low hanging fruit.
- question000 6y ago
  I'm sorry China has solved many problems the West is still working on. They've had public funded healthcare/education from the medieval era and they haven't been involved in any major wars and yet still dictate policy in the region.
  - Semiapies 6y ago
    Disregarding who actually had access to that healthcare and education (since by similar definitions of who had access, the West had both public services by the classical Greek era)...No major wars? Really? Even ignoring the phrasing that could be read as claiming no major wars since the medieval era, we don't have to go so far back. I mean, sure, the Cultural Revolution killed more Chinese people than WW2 and the Korean war did combined, but that's still eleven million or so Chinese people dead in those conflicts.
  - kansface 6y ago
    China is responsible for murdering many 10s, possibly 100 million of its own citizens and is actively and purposefully engaged in genocide of its own people right now. I have a very hard time separating the good from the bad here. > they haven't been involved in any major wars and yet still dictate policy in the region. As far as I know, the last major war China fought in was when they invaded Vietnam in 1979 after Vietnam had invaded Cambodia (Chinese ally) to get rid of the Khmer Rouge (the same regime that killed everyone who wore glasses because they may have been reading too much)...
- asdff 6y ago
  The west made some of these improvements 70 years ago but follow up maintenance, replacement, and expansion never came. The built environment of the U.S. has changed remarkably little in the past 40 years, and we are paying for this stasis today with our housing crisis from not building enough housing supply, our congested and crumbling roadways, our lack of transit infrastructure investment (NYC subway has been frozen in time for almost a century practically, and all we can celebrate elsewhere are a handful of light rail lines that usually sit in traffic with the cars), we've voted to defund our schools, and have refused to expand our public healthcare system to those younger than 65 as originally planned in order to protect private insurance industries. The only improvement the west has made in the last 40 years was figuring out how to move a greater proportion of its wealth into the hands of the few, and iPhones I guess.
jjb123 6y ago
We made those same moves 100 years earlier, with liberty intact. If North Korea made this relative progress over the next 30 years (and 70 years after South Korea), this same argument would suggest there’s something we should copy there.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Yes, in 160 years, as opposed to 30, and then solved many problems we aren't able to solve. No one is saying that authoritarian governments are good, but opposition to efficient governments just makes life worse for everyone.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Any country in a retrograde economy has the benefit of existing modern technology to adopt as well as the absence of legacy encumbrances, making it easier to play catch-up.
    - Semiapies 6y ago
      It's similar to the "miracle" of Soviet industrialization. The USSR hired scads of advisors from Western companies to direct their efforts, then chest-thumped about socialism. Or, for that matter, the Nazi economic "miracle". In their case, they started from the wreckage of WW1 and the Weimar Republic, but they used knowledge and corporate organization that predated both to rebuild, while letting their ideology and leadership take credit.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        There was no Nazi economic miracle - it was built on debt and was unsustainable, which is why it's discounted. Not because somehow it used existing expertise, of course it did, that's entirely normal. As far as that, I don't see how hiring foreign advisors somehow make your own economic achievements worthless - anyone can do that, and it's stupid to expect everyone to reinvent the wheel.
zajio1am 6y ago
Most western countries that were part of communist bloc can say that.

echelon 6y ago

That's because the West already made those improvements and there are no longer any low hanging fruit.

question000 6y ago
I'm sorry China has solved many problems the West is still working on. They've had public funded healthcare/education from the medieval era and they haven't been involved in any major wars and yet still dictate policy in the region.
- Semiapies 6y ago
  Disregarding who actually had access to that healthcare and education (since by similar definitions of who had access, the West had both public services by the classical Greek era)...No major wars? Really? Even ignoring the phrasing that could be read as claiming no major wars since the medieval era, we don't have to go so far back. I mean, sure, the Cultural Revolution killed more Chinese people than WW2 and the Korean war did combined, but that's still eleven million or so Chinese people dead in those conflicts.
- kansface 6y ago
  China is responsible for murdering many 10s, possibly 100 million of its own citizens and is actively and purposefully engaged in genocide of its own people right now. I have a very hard time separating the good from the bad here. > they haven't been involved in any major wars and yet still dictate policy in the region. As far as I know, the last major war China fought in was when they invaded Vietnam in 1979 after Vietnam had invaded Cambodia (Chinese ally) to get rid of the Khmer Rouge (the same regime that killed everyone who wore glasses because they may have been reading too much)...
asdff 6y ago
The west made some of these improvements 70 years ago but follow up maintenance, replacement, and expansion never came. The built environment of the U.S. has changed remarkably little in the past 40 years, and we are paying for this stasis today with our housing crisis from not building enough housing supply, our congested and crumbling roadways, our lack of transit infrastructure investment (NYC subway has been frozen in time for almost a century practically, and all we can celebrate elsewhere are a handful of light rail lines that usually sit in traffic with the cars), we've voted to defund our schools, and have refused to expand our public healthcare system to those younger than 65 as originally planned in order to protect private insurance industries. The only improvement the west has made in the last 40 years was figuring out how to move a greater proportion of its wealth into the hands of the few, and iPhones I guess.

jjb123 6y ago

We made those same moves 100 years earlier, with liberty intact. If North Korea made this relative progress over the next 30 years (and 70 years after South Korea), this same argument would suggest there’s something we should copy there.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Yes, in 160 years, as opposed to 30, and then solved many problems we aren't able to solve. No one is saying that authoritarian governments are good, but opposition to efficient governments just makes life worse for everyone.
- mc32 6y ago
  Any country in a retrograde economy has the benefit of existing modern technology to adopt as well as the absence of legacy encumbrances, making it easier to play catch-up.
  - Semiapies 6y ago
    It's similar to the "miracle" of Soviet industrialization. The USSR hired scads of advisors from Western companies to direct their efforts, then chest-thumped about socialism. Or, for that matter, the Nazi economic "miracle". In their case, they started from the wreckage of WW1 and the Weimar Republic, but they used knowledge and corporate organization that predated both to rebuild, while letting their ideology and leadership take credit.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      There was no Nazi economic miracle - it was built on debt and was unsustainable, which is why it's discounted. Not because somehow it used existing expertise, of course it did, that's entirely normal. As far as that, I don't see how hiring foreign advisors somehow make your own economic achievements worthless - anyone can do that, and it's stupid to expect everyone to reinvent the wheel.

zajio1am 6y ago

Most western countries that were part of communist bloc can say that.