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I'm hard-pressed to think of any example where a unionized labor force killed a viable industry (or even a single company). Look up the British car industry, s

I'm hard-pressed to think of any example where a unionized labor force killed a viable industry (or even a single company). Look up the British car industry, specifically the antics of "Red Robbo" at British Leyland. Carmaking is a viable industry in the UK and is doing well now that it is all foreign-owned with minimal union interference. There would probably still be coal mining in the UK if it were not for the NUM, we import coal now. Then again this is specific to Britain, German unions are completely different, and I would be pro-union if ours were like the Germans.

corin_ 6y ago
You're buying into propaganda about British unions, blaming them for the car industry is ridiculous, and when it comes to mining you seem to think that the mines would have lasted longer had unions not been against shutting mines?
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  you seem to think that the mines would have lasted longer had unions not been against shutting mines? At the time, the average ton of coal was costing double to extract than it was worth. Closing the loss making mines was inevitable but the viable mines could have remained open, and would have as there was still the demand for coal. The Germans do this right, their unions want their workers to have fair share of the rewards and understand that the company must be profitable in the first place for that to happen. British union leaders simply play workers against management for their own gain, then leave both workers and management worse off, but workers get the worst of it.
  - corin_ 6y ago
    > "British union leaders simply play workers against management for their own gain, then leave both workers and management worse off, but workers get the worst of it." Again, you're buying into nonsense anti-union propaganda.
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      Again, you're buying into nonsense anti-union propaganda. I'm not buying into anything. I see Germany with strong unions and a strong industrial sector and I want that here. Just there is something in the British union movement that makes it destructive instead.
      - corin_ 6y ago
        The point I'm making is that you're wrong to think that the "British union movement [.. is] destructive", in actual fact the unions have been unfairly scapegoated and villainised for decades leading some people to believe what you believe. Of course, maybe you're not buying into the propaganda but actually purposefully spreading it. Or maybe my opinions are wrong, but I obviously don't believe that to be the case. I'm afraid I can't be much more useful in my argument, I've met and discussed with many British trade union leaders and representatives, as well as many managers who didn't enjoy having to deal with unions and I have a very strong opinion that you're wrong without really having a thought about how to change your mind other than suggesting learning more about the subject. If you'd be interested I'd be happy to text a friend and ask if they have a recommendation for a single book to read about it, or maybe your mind is already made up.
FireBeyond 6y ago
> There would probably still be coal mining in the UK if it were not for the NUM, we import coal now. While they certainly didn't play an innocent role in the demise (planned, expected or otherwise) of the coal mining industry, to lay blame squarely at the union's feet ignores the _other_ 800lb gorilla in the room. The mines would have and were becoming less economically viable. But the Thatcher government made a point of starting the closures at the worst possible time, "effective immediately", and then made a point of pointedly ignoring the economic collapse of entire towns and districts whose lifeblood had been the coal mines. There were multiple towns of 20,000 working age people, 15,000+ of whom worked in the coal industry. And there was precisely nothing done to handle that collapse, and just as importantly to the union's handling - there was not even the hint of sympathy or compassion from the Thatcher government - everything was all about the "wicked" union "stealing" from the British people, and an infamous quote that "if miners don't like being out of work, they need to get on their bike and find more [work]". The problem with this is, even if the union had been stubborn, before, this attitude steeled their resolve to be just as hard-headed as Thatcher.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  But the Thatcher government made a point of starting the closures at the worst possible time, "effective immediately", and then made a point of pointedly ignoring the economic collapse of entire towns and districts whose lifeblood had been the coal mines. That is true, but the context at the time was the Winter Of Discontent. The unions had squandered all the goodwill the voters might otherwise have had.
  - p_j_w 6y ago
    Unions not having an abundance of good will is a pretty sad excuse for bad policy.
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      Unions not having an abundance of good will is a pretty sad excuse for bad policy Thatcher was voted in for one reason: that taxpaying voters had just experienced the Winter Of Discontent and wanted something doing about it once and for all. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of perspective but that's the context in which it happened.
Der_Einzige 6y ago
Nah, bentley, aston martin, and the other british car companies simply make bad cars in comparison to competitors. It wasn't unions that killed them
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  its especially ridiculous when they got out competed by even more heavily unionized German auto firms.

corin_ 6y ago

You're buying into propaganda about British unions, blaming them for the car industry is ridiculous, and when it comes to mining you seem to think that the mines would have lasted longer had unions not been against shutting mines?

goatinaboat 6y ago
you seem to think that the mines would have lasted longer had unions not been against shutting mines? At the time, the average ton of coal was costing double to extract than it was worth. Closing the loss making mines was inevitable but the viable mines could have remained open, and would have as there was still the demand for coal. The Germans do this right, their unions want their workers to have fair share of the rewards and understand that the company must be profitable in the first place for that to happen. British union leaders simply play workers against management for their own gain, then leave both workers and management worse off, but workers get the worst of it.
- corin_ 6y ago
  > "British union leaders simply play workers against management for their own gain, then leave both workers and management worse off, but workers get the worst of it." Again, you're buying into nonsense anti-union propaganda.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    Again, you're buying into nonsense anti-union propaganda. I'm not buying into anything. I see Germany with strong unions and a strong industrial sector and I want that here. Just there is something in the British union movement that makes it destructive instead.
    - corin_ 6y ago
      The point I'm making is that you're wrong to think that the "British union movement [.. is] destructive", in actual fact the unions have been unfairly scapegoated and villainised for decades leading some people to believe what you believe. Of course, maybe you're not buying into the propaganda but actually purposefully spreading it. Or maybe my opinions are wrong, but I obviously don't believe that to be the case. I'm afraid I can't be much more useful in my argument, I've met and discussed with many British trade union leaders and representatives, as well as many managers who didn't enjoy having to deal with unions and I have a very strong opinion that you're wrong without really having a thought about how to change your mind other than suggesting learning more about the subject. If you'd be interested I'd be happy to text a friend and ask if they have a recommendation for a single book to read about it, or maybe your mind is already made up.

FireBeyond 6y ago

> There would probably still be coal mining in the UK if it were not for the NUM, we import coal now. While they certainly didn't play an innocent role in the demise (planned, expected or otherwise) of the coal mining industry, to lay blame squarely at the union's feet ignores the _other_ 800lb gorilla in the room. The mines would have and were becoming less economically viable. But the Thatcher government made a point of starting the closures at the worst possible time, "effective immediately", and then made a point of pointedly ignoring the economic collapse of entire towns and districts whose lifeblood had been the coal mines. There were multiple towns of 20,000 working age people, 15,000+ of whom worked in the coal industry. And there was precisely nothing done to handle that collapse, and just as importantly to the union's handling - there was not even the hint of sympathy or compassion from the Thatcher government - everything was all about the "wicked" union "stealing" from the British people, and an infamous quote that "if miners don't like being out of work, they need to get on their bike and find more [work]". The problem with this is, even if the union had been stubborn, before, this attitude steeled their resolve to be just as hard-headed as Thatcher.

goatinaboat 6y ago
But the Thatcher government made a point of starting the closures at the worst possible time, "effective immediately", and then made a point of pointedly ignoring the economic collapse of entire towns and districts whose lifeblood had been the coal mines. That is true, but the context at the time was the Winter Of Discontent. The unions had squandered all the goodwill the voters might otherwise have had.
- p_j_w 6y ago
  Unions not having an abundance of good will is a pretty sad excuse for bad policy.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    Unions not having an abundance of good will is a pretty sad excuse for bad policy Thatcher was voted in for one reason: that taxpaying voters had just experienced the Winter Of Discontent and wanted something doing about it once and for all. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of perspective but that's the context in which it happened.

Der_Einzige 6y ago

Nah, bentley, aston martin, and the other british car companies simply make bad cars in comparison to competitors. It wasn't unions that killed them

throwaway2048 6y ago
its especially ridiculous when they got out competed by even more heavily unionized German auto firms.