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> What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles? I'm afraid there will be none. Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing e

> What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles? I'm afraid there will be none. Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing existing EVs differ from each other. Mechanically, they are all very, very simple. Simpler than any IC car. Compact wishbone suspension is used on pretty much every one of them, since all EVs are city cars, and you want as much space for batteries as possible, and as lower centre of mass as possible And since all EVs are very heavy, you don't have much innovations in body design either, it just needs to be very strong, and very rigid to securely accommodate the battery pack. This way the vision of "White Label, off the shelf cars" produced by some Foxconn like maker swallowing the market is very much real.

lastofthemojito 6y ago
>Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing existing EVs differ from each other. That seems like a strange thing to say. We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel. There's about an order of magnitude difference between the horsepower in a Renault Zoe and a top-of-the-line Tesla Model S. Not all EVs use the same suspension either - Tesla's S and X use an air suspension, and Jaguar offers air suspension on the I-Pace as well. I certainly agree that taking the ICE out of the vehicle takes away one of the big differentiators between car brands, but I think expecting there to be no differentiators between EVs seems pretty silly. There will always be cheaper, simpler models and more expensive, extravagant models. There will always be innovators trying new features, some of which will succeed and trickle down to other cars, and some of which will be expensive curiosities.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel. This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer. There is not much differentiation besides linear cost/performance progression. Motors? Suspension? Horsepower? All basically more money for bigger motor, hp, and performance.
  - lastofthemojito 6y ago
    Maybe, but I feel like you could say the same about ICE cars. In general, throw more money at the car, get a bigger, more powerful engine. There's probably still room for different approaches. Dodge seems to be known for cheap power - you can get a Challenger with a ton of horsepower for way less than say, a Porsche with equivalent horsepower. The Challenger is still based on the Challenger that was released in 2008 (Dodge gets more for their design money by using designs longer) and won't be appointed with interior materials that feel as nice. Future Dodge might do the same - "let's make the most powerful electric coupe we can for $40k!" as opposed to something like "let's make a nice, comfortable, safe, well-rounded car for $40k".
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    > This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer. Am I understanding your statement correctly? Are you implying that FWD/RWD/AWD doesn't matter for an EV? Because from a handling and safety perspective, it matters just as much in an EV as it does in an ICE.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      Yes, EVs are predominantly city cars. Very heavy, and low-central centre of gravity. Nobody will be racing them, otherwise the stability provided by weight should be very good. However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models.
      - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
        Okay, this is only true if you live in a warm and dry climate and don't have a lead foot. > However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models. FWD cars are far more stable than RWD. This is important when driving in the rain as it helps lessen the likelihood of hydroplaning. Non-performance cars aren't just FWD because it's cheaper than RWD to make, but because they're safer. And if you live in a climate with a lot of snow, you'll definitely want AWD. > However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models. As I said, safety. Yes, the traction control in an EV works amazing, arguably better than an ICE, but even better is a drivetrain setup that reduces the need for it entirely.
ungamedplayer 6y ago
What about improved battery tech, Weight distribution, Software updates, Safety equipment, internal computers, in car entertainment, in-wheel motors, drive-train connections to electronic towing, theft deterrence ?
- baybal2 6y ago
  > What about improved battery tech? We haven't seem much improvement on the market since second gen ternary hit. All coming improvements will be very gradual. Cars on the market already hit possible upper/lower weight, and size limits for the battery pack. > Weight distribution Any other than low, and centre? > Software updates Do you want to play videogames on your car? Will you pay few thousand dollars more for a UI skin update once a year? > in-wheel motors May be, but that will only work towards killing the differentiation even more, at least in the low end.
  - ungamedplayer 6y ago
    Rather than debate each of these, you have agreed that there is a difference just nothing that you specifically care about. > Will you pay few thousand dollars more for a UI skin update once a year? What ? no.. I never said that these were paid updates, I said this was differentiator. Do you want security updates ? Or just to have the software abandoned once it ships.
lolsal 6y ago
What is happening to EVs now will not stay constrained to the vehicle itself. We're seeing innovations in terms of integrations - with CarPlay/AndroidAuto, Phone-as-key, wifi APs, surveillance, etc. All of these things are new and have little to do with what is beneath the sheet metal and plastic body panels. There are also interesting innovations that become more possible as more and more vehicles become "smart" and connected - imagine a metro area that is influencing smart vehicles +/- a few kph to smooth traffic, or route vehicular traffic like networking traffic around outages/problems. The differentiator(s) won't be ways to make tires spin around an axle differently.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > There are also interesting innovations that become more possible as more and more vehicles become "smart" and connected - imagine a metro area that is influencing smart vehicles +/- a few kph to smooth traffic, or route vehicular traffic like networking traffic around outages/problems. And this "differentiation" will be easily retrofitted to every other vehicle since there is nothing inherent to vehicle construction that is required for that. Well, the idea itself is not bad, and I'd see this being as the one, and only way any form of "self" driving will appear — as some kind of centralised "air traffic control" for car traffic, instead of each car doing the very fragile SLAM based navigation, and complex sensor suite based driving, which is one dirt splat away from the crash all the time.
  - lolsal 6y ago
    Not necessarily - think Waze GPS. That was pretty unique and innovative. Traffic data + crowd sourced real-time inputs let Waze uniquely route your path. Imagine a Tesla cuts your average commute from 30 to 10 minutes, while you AFK and enjoy your coffee, vs the Ford vehicles that can let you AFK and enjoy your coffee, but you're still getting there 30 minutes on average. These kinds of "fringe" innovations are going to explode I think and even if they aren't innovative, they will help differentiate.
karaterobot 6y ago
I don't know a ton about electric vehicles, but I do know you can go a long way without a technological differentiator. Variations in materials, design, name brand, and marketing have sustained the fashion industry for quite a while. What's the difference between two pairs or shoes, or two pairs of pants? One isn't fundamentally more advanced then the other, yet there are winners and losers in that industry.
Ekaros 6y ago
Even with ICEs we kinda are there already. Surprisingly many cars are mostly same underneath, but hull, interior etc. are different. I don't see why same won't apply to EVs.

lastofthemojito 6y ago

>Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing existing EVs differ from each other. That seems like a strange thing to say. We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel. There's about an order of magnitude difference between the horsepower in a Renault Zoe and a top-of-the-line Tesla Model S. Not all EVs use the same suspension either - Tesla's S and X use an air suspension, and Jaguar offers air suspension on the I-Pace as well. I certainly agree that taking the ICE out of the vehicle takes away one of the big differentiators between car brands, but I think expecting there to be no differentiators between EVs seems pretty silly. There will always be cheaper, simpler models and more expensive, extravagant models. There will always be innovators trying new features, some of which will succeed and trickle down to other cars, and some of which will be expensive curiosities.

baybal2 6y ago
> We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel. This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer. There is not much differentiation besides linear cost/performance progression. Motors? Suspension? Horsepower? All basically more money for bigger motor, hp, and performance.
- lastofthemojito 6y ago
  Maybe, but I feel like you could say the same about ICE cars. In general, throw more money at the car, get a bigger, more powerful engine. There's probably still room for different approaches. Dodge seems to be known for cheap power - you can get a Challenger with a ton of horsepower for way less than say, a Porsche with equivalent horsepower. The Challenger is still based on the Challenger that was released in 2008 (Dodge gets more for their design money by using designs longer) and won't be appointed with interior materials that feel as nice. Future Dodge might do the same - "let's make the most powerful electric coupe we can for $40k!" as opposed to something like "let's make a nice, comfortable, safe, well-rounded car for $40k".
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  > This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer. Am I understanding your statement correctly? Are you implying that FWD/RWD/AWD doesn't matter for an EV? Because from a handling and safety perspective, it matters just as much in an EV as it does in an ICE.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Yes, EVs are predominantly city cars. Very heavy, and low-central centre of gravity. Nobody will be racing them, otherwise the stability provided by weight should be very good. However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models.
    - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
      Okay, this is only true if you live in a warm and dry climate and don't have a lead foot. > However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models. FWD cars are far more stable than RWD. This is important when driving in the rain as it helps lessen the likelihood of hydroplaning. Non-performance cars aren't just FWD because it's cheaper than RWD to make, but because they're safer. And if you live in a climate with a lot of snow, you'll definitely want AWD. > However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models. As I said, safety. Yes, the traction control in an EV works amazing, arguably better than an ICE, but even better is a drivetrain setup that reduces the need for it entirely.

ungamedplayer 6y ago

What about improved battery tech, Weight distribution, Software updates, Safety equipment, internal computers, in car entertainment, in-wheel motors, drive-train connections to electronic towing, theft deterrence ?

baybal2 6y ago
> What about improved battery tech? We haven't seem much improvement on the market since second gen ternary hit. All coming improvements will be very gradual. Cars on the market already hit possible upper/lower weight, and size limits for the battery pack. > Weight distribution Any other than low, and centre? > Software updates Do you want to play videogames on your car? Will you pay few thousand dollars more for a UI skin update once a year? > in-wheel motors May be, but that will only work towards killing the differentiation even more, at least in the low end.
- ungamedplayer 6y ago
  Rather than debate each of these, you have agreed that there is a difference just nothing that you specifically care about. > Will you pay few thousand dollars more for a UI skin update once a year? What ? no.. I never said that these were paid updates, I said this was differentiator. Do you want security updates ? Or just to have the software abandoned once it ships.

lolsal 6y ago

What is happening to EVs now will not stay constrained to the vehicle itself. We're seeing innovations in terms of integrations - with CarPlay/AndroidAuto, Phone-as-key, wifi APs, surveillance, etc. All of these things are new and have little to do with what is beneath the sheet metal and plastic body panels. There are also interesting innovations that become more possible as more and more vehicles become "smart" and connected - imagine a metro area that is influencing smart vehicles +/- a few kph to smooth traffic, or route vehicular traffic like networking traffic around outages/problems. The differentiator(s) won't be ways to make tires spin around an axle differently.

baybal2 6y ago
> There are also interesting innovations that become more possible as more and more vehicles become "smart" and connected - imagine a metro area that is influencing smart vehicles +/- a few kph to smooth traffic, or route vehicular traffic like networking traffic around outages/problems. And this "differentiation" will be easily retrofitted to every other vehicle since there is nothing inherent to vehicle construction that is required for that. Well, the idea itself is not bad, and I'd see this being as the one, and only way any form of "self" driving will appear — as some kind of centralised "air traffic control" for car traffic, instead of each car doing the very fragile SLAM based navigation, and complex sensor suite based driving, which is one dirt splat away from the crash all the time.
- lolsal 6y ago
  Not necessarily - think Waze GPS. That was pretty unique and innovative. Traffic data + crowd sourced real-time inputs let Waze uniquely route your path. Imagine a Tesla cuts your average commute from 30 to 10 minutes, while you AFK and enjoy your coffee, vs the Ford vehicles that can let you AFK and enjoy your coffee, but you're still getting there 30 minutes on average. These kinds of "fringe" innovations are going to explode I think and even if they aren't innovative, they will help differentiate.

karaterobot 6y ago

I don't know a ton about electric vehicles, but I do know you can go a long way without a technological differentiator. Variations in materials, design, name brand, and marketing have sustained the fashion industry for quite a while. What's the difference between two pairs or shoes, or two pairs of pants? One isn't fundamentally more advanced then the other, yet there are winners and losers in that industry.

Ekaros 6y ago

Even with ICEs we kinda are there already. Surprisingly many cars are mostly same underneath, but hull, interior etc. are different. I don't see why same won't apply to EVs.