4 ms·

Doing business in Argentina: A constant feeling of crisis

40 points by nitfol 15y ago

OstiaAntica 15y ago
I was in Buenos Aires a couple years ago and was talking to some U.S. oilmen. They said Argentina was unbelievably corrupt and that it was easier to do business in Egypt. BA is beautiful but tragic, there are massive shanties surrounding a city designed after Paris and built 100 years ago, when Argentina was among the wealthiest nations in the world. If you don't think politics matters, study Argentina and the way their elites, inspired by the statist Peronista ideology, have ransacked the nation and its people.
- mrleinad 15y ago
  I'd also recommend you to read Eduardo Galeano, his book "Open veins of Latin America", although written in the 70's, is an eye opener to understand why the region is in its current state. I agree that corruption here in Argentina is everywhere. But not all the money has gone to the elites. Most of that money that was stolen to people went to North American companies.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  That was my impression of BA as well. A city with the potential for so much wealth, and clearly a history of wealth and trade, that has been entirely squandered. It's a fantastic city to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
pandres 15y ago
We are doing pretty well right now, actually.
- imasr 15y ago
  "Right now" always seems to be our problem. I just tried to rent a flat and they were trying to enforce 10% price rices every 6 months, even though it's illegal. That's just one example of the "right now". Because I can make a buck, I will, don't matter what; then we blame on the politicians. There's so much we have yet to learn.
  - ferostar 15y ago
    Great insight on human nature, or is it on argentinian human nature? Complains, complains, complains.
william42 15y ago
This has been posted before.
wisty 15y ago
The last part is interesting - you can't make a buck there (due to the taxes), but you can build a back-office.
zfran 15y ago
As stated by others in the article's comments, leaving the entrepreneurial stuff aside, this is really close to being bullshit. It quotes Alberto Cavallo, who's father was the minister of economy that led Argentina to the 2000's crisis... I live in BA and the situation isn't as bad as the article describes it. Full article with comments: http://www.inc.com/magazine/201106/doing-business-in-argentina.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/201106/doing-business-in-argenti...
- bx_lr 15y ago
  Could you describe your experiences a bit more? Buenos Aires seems to be one of the more interesting places in South America. Based on the typical news about South America (or Mexico), just landing on that continent will get you kidnapped, abused by the police, robbed, mugged, cheated, etc.
  - ferostar 15y ago
    Not that you asked me, but living here i wanted to share my two cents. Buenos Aires is not tragic at all, it's... just a little melancholic. A tiny London with poor people and too much humidity, but with great people, lovely architecture, and well, there's insecurity, no way to deny it, but it all depends on where you go. You can walk, travel, go out, party, do whatever you want and you won't feel paranoid or anything. Oh, and there aren't as many escaped nazis here as in the movies, either.
    - bx_lr 15y ago
      Thanks :-) Comparison to London makes me feel better about Buenos Aires. Puts thing into a context. I actually used to live in North London, in a semi-rough area. Even though London was an expensive mess and certain areas gave the feeling of insecurity, I still liked it...at least it was an interesting mess.
  - redthrowaway 15y ago
    >Based on the typical news about South America (or Mexico), just landing on that continent will get you kidnapped, abused by the police, robbed, mugged, cheated, etc. That's like saying, "Based on the typical news about Miami (or Anchorage), you will get eaten by polar bears and die of hypothermia". Mexico is not South America, and it's nowhere close to Argentina. The distance between Juarez and BA is about the same as the distance between London and Seoul. Seriously. Worlds apart. You can't generalize South America. It's bloody ginormous, and has far more cultural diversity than North America. It's far from homogenous. There are some places in South America that are dangerous. Most aren't. Similarly, you don't judge San Francisco by Detroit. I've travelled through Argentina, Bolivia, Peru, and Ecuador. Buenos Aires is basically Paris or Madrid, but a little run down and depressing (much better night life, though). Bolivia is mostly alpine desert in the south and jungle in the north, and almost all poor. Peru ranges from modern metropolis (Lima) to shacks on a beach (Mancora), to mountains, jungles, etc. Ecuador is the only place I ever felt unsafe, and only in parts of Quito and Guayaquil. The worst places for crime and personal safety were apparently Venezuela and parts of Brazil. Anyways, the point is you're trying to shoehorn an entire continent with dozens of countries and hundreds of cultures into a single mental schema, and that's just a dumb thing to do. It would be like saying "Asian culture" and thinking you could fit China, North Korea, Japan, Thailand, and India in one label.
ferostar 15y ago
Living in Buenos Aires, i have to said that the article is a big rant. Sure, let's make a complete insight about the economy of a complicated, third world country by well, touring a little bit and talking with a couple of entrepreneurs. This country has lots and lots of issues, corruption, you name it, but is not that bad at all. In fact, it has improved a little bit since 2001. And what is even more important to this place, it has a little but important entrepreneur community (Pallermo Valley, for instance). Perhaps, constant adversity helps people to sail agains the wind or any other cliché you might love. And don't start talking about politics without knowing, we were never one of the richest nations of the world, just a couple of very rich people that thought we did and made a couple of history books about it ;).
- kkowalczyk 15y ago
  Nothing you said contradicts the article. I can understand the "it's not that bad at all" sentiment from a personal perspective but it doesn't mean that things aren't bad on a rational, comparative basis. I grew up in Poland, a country at the time under communist regime. It would take a book to describe all the ways the economy and life was fucked up compared to west countries. It really was a terrible country to live in. But at the same time 40 million people did and on some level our lives weren't all that different from people in richer, cleaner countries where people could buy toilet paper every day. People have amazing ability to adapt to very adverse environments. From reading the article I get the impression that Argentina is truly, factually fucked up country, compared to other countries, just like Poland was under communism. While your reassurance that "it's not bad at all" is a testament to adaptive power of humans, unless you challenge the facts described in the article you're not very convincing. As to your claim challenging the notion that Argentina was a rich nation, well, the rich people you speak of were very successful at rewriting the history. According to Wikipedia: "Argentina increased in prosperity and prominence between 1880 and 1929 and emerged as one of the ten richest countries in the world, benefiting from an agricultural export-led economy as well as British and French investment. Driven by immigration and decreasing mortality the Argentine population grew fivefold and the economy 15-fold."
  - mrleinad 15y ago
kragen 15y ago
There was a really good comment thread on this article when it was posted here 18 days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2603104 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2603104

40 points by nitfol 15y ago

I was in Buenos Aires a couple years ago and was talking to some U.S. oilmen. They said Argentina was unbelievably corrupt and that it was easier to do business in Egypt. BA is beautiful but tragic, there are massive shanties surrounding a city designed after Paris and built 100 years ago, when Argentina was among the wealthiest nations in the world. If you don't think politics matters, study Argentina and the way their elites, inspired by the statist Peronista ideology, have ransacked the nation and its people.

mrleinad 15y ago
I'd also recommend you to read Eduardo Galeano, his book "Open veins of Latin America", although written in the 70's, is an eye opener to understand why the region is in its current state. I agree that corruption here in Argentina is everywhere. But not all the money has gone to the elites. Most of that money that was stolen to people went to North American companies.
redthrowaway 15y ago
That was my impression of BA as well. A city with the potential for so much wealth, and clearly a history of wealth and trade, that has been entirely squandered. It's a fantastic city to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

pandres 15y ago

We are doing pretty well right now, actually.

imasr 15y ago
"Right now" always seems to be our problem. I just tried to rent a flat and they were trying to enforce 10% price rices every 6 months, even though it's illegal. That's just one example of the "right now". Because I can make a buck, I will, don't matter what; then we blame on the politicians. There's so much we have yet to learn.
- ferostar 15y ago
  Great insight on human nature, or is it on argentinian human nature? Complains, complains, complains.

william42 15y ago

This has been posted before.

wisty 15y ago

The last part is interesting - you can't make a buck there (due to the taxes), but you can build a back-office.

zfran 15y ago

As stated by others in the article's comments, leaving the entrepreneurial stuff aside, this is really close to being bullshit. It quotes Alberto Cavallo, who's father was the minister of economy that led Argentina to the 2000's crisis... I live in BA and the situation isn't as bad as the article describes it. Full article with comments: http://www.inc.com/magazine/201106/doing-business-in-argentina.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/201106/doing-business-in-argenti...

bx_lr 15y ago
Could you describe your experiences a bit more? Buenos Aires seems to be one of the more interesting places in South America. Based on the typical news about South America (or Mexico), just landing on that continent will get you kidnapped, abused by the police, robbed, mugged, cheated, etc.
- ferostar 15y ago
  Not that you asked me, but living here i wanted to share my two cents. Buenos Aires is not tragic at all, it's... just a little melancholic. A tiny London with poor people and too much humidity, but with great people, lovely architecture, and well, there's insecurity, no way to deny it, but it all depends on where you go. You can walk, travel, go out, party, do whatever you want and you won't feel paranoid or anything. Oh, and there aren't as many escaped nazis here as in the movies, either.
  - bx_lr 15y ago
    Thanks :-) Comparison to London makes me feel better about Buenos Aires. Puts thing into a context. I actually used to live in North London, in a semi-rough area. Even though London was an expensive mess and certain areas gave the feeling of insecurity, I still liked it...at least it was an interesting mess.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  >Based on the typical news about South America (or Mexico), just landing on that continent will get you kidnapped, abused by the police, robbed, mugged, cheated, etc. That's like saying, "Based on the typical news about Miami (or Anchorage), you will get eaten by polar bears and die of hypothermia". Mexico is not South America, and it's nowhere close to Argentina. The distance between Juarez and BA is about the same as the distance between London and Seoul. Seriously. Worlds apart. You can't generalize South America. It's bloody ginormous, and has far more cultural diversity than North America. It's far from homogenous. There are some places in South America that are dangerous. Most aren't. Similarly, you don't judge San Francisco by Detroit. I've travelled through Argentina, Bolivia, Peru, and Ecuador. Buenos Aires is basically Paris or Madrid, but a little run down and depressing (much better night life, though). Bolivia is mostly alpine desert in the south and jungle in the north, and almost all poor. Peru ranges from modern metropolis (Lima) to shacks on a beach (Mancora), to mountains, jungles, etc. Ecuador is the only place I ever felt unsafe, and only in parts of Quito and Guayaquil. The worst places for crime and personal safety were apparently Venezuela and parts of Brazil. Anyways, the point is you're trying to shoehorn an entire continent with dozens of countries and hundreds of cultures into a single mental schema, and that's just a dumb thing to do. It would be like saying "Asian culture" and thinking you could fit China, North Korea, Japan, Thailand, and India in one label.

ferostar 15y ago

Living in Buenos Aires, i have to said that the article is a big rant. Sure, let's make a complete insight about the economy of a complicated, third world country by well, touring a little bit and talking with a couple of entrepreneurs. This country has lots and lots of issues, corruption, you name it, but is not that bad at all. In fact, it has improved a little bit since 2001. And what is even more important to this place, it has a little but important entrepreneur community (Pallermo Valley, for instance). Perhaps, constant adversity helps people to sail agains the wind or any other cliché you might love. And don't start talking about politics without knowing, we were never one of the richest nations of the world, just a couple of very rich people that thought we did and made a couple of history books about it ;).

kkowalczyk 15y ago
Nothing you said contradicts the article. I can understand the "it's not that bad at all" sentiment from a personal perspective but it doesn't mean that things aren't bad on a rational, comparative basis. I grew up in Poland, a country at the time under communist regime. It would take a book to describe all the ways the economy and life was fucked up compared to west countries. It really was a terrible country to live in. But at the same time 40 million people did and on some level our lives weren't all that different from people in richer, cleaner countries where people could buy toilet paper every day. People have amazing ability to adapt to very adverse environments. From reading the article I get the impression that Argentina is truly, factually fucked up country, compared to other countries, just like Poland was under communism. While your reassurance that "it's not bad at all" is a testament to adaptive power of humans, unless you challenge the facts described in the article you're not very convincing. As to your claim challenging the notion that Argentina was a rich nation, well, the rich people you speak of were very successful at rewriting the history. According to Wikipedia: "Argentina increased in prosperity and prominence between 1880 and 1929 and emerged as one of the ten richest countries in the world, benefiting from an agricultural export-led economy as well as British and French investment. Driven by immigration and decreasing mortality the Argentine population grew fivefold and the economy 15-fold."
- mrleinad 15y ago

kragen 15y ago

There was a really good comment thread on this article when it was posted here 18 days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2603104 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2603104