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Not to disagree with what you said, but my point was that Netflix is not "creating a common European culture" it's simply broadcasting content, more than it was

Not to disagree with what you said, but my point was that Netflix is not "creating a common European culture" it's simply broadcasting content, more than it was possible before, but it wasn't something unheard of in Europe and it doesn't really spread "culture" (us Italians are not like the characters of Gomorra and German policemen are not like Derrick, that's simply entertainment) I think Schengen and herasmus program were much more important for the common European culture and to build a sense of belonging to a shared sovra national space where we are all Europeans. Also most western Europe has been in close contact since the end of WW2, developing those relationships that led them to the first treaties in 1957 and us where we are today. We don't need Netflix for that.

vidarh 6y ago
That Netflix isn't intending to, and that we don't need it doesn't mean it isn't contributing to it. I don't see what Schengen had to do with anything - lack of passport checks is a nice convenience but that is all. Freedom of movement, sure, but that is separate from Schengen. And I think dismissing light entertainment as not being culture is pointlessly elitist. A whole lot of culture is light entertainment, and often what spreads to the most people. Most of Western Europe has close ties going back much further, but close ties does not translate immediately to the extent of shared culture diffusing through populations. Not least because there is a stark difference between ties that are confined to a subset of the populations vs. those that are more widely shared. I live in the UK, and have done so for 21 years, but come from Norway, and one of the first things I realised on moving here was how superficial cultural exchange often is - most people have no conception what it's like to live in another country. Even one they in many cases have often been to as a visitor. And e.g. shared entertainment is part of that. Growing up watching different things, talking about different things etc. contributes to cultural differences even decades later. I still experience people bringing up cultural references that they share that I don't for that reason. I agree with you regarding Erasmus for that reason, but I also think that seeing more shared programming will matter more than you think in giving more people shared reference points because it is a lasting and ongoing part of people's lives. Irrespective of Netflix' motivations.
- africanboy 6y ago
  > Freedom of movement, sure, but that is separate from Schengen. True, I meant Bosman not Schengen. > And I think dismissing light entertainment as not being culture is pointlessly elitist I am sorry if it came out that way, what I meant is that entertainment is more tied to personality and familiarity than culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a social group" because those things are usually misrepresented in a fictional show made to entertain the general public. I love Southpark because I love that kind of harsh sarcasm, but I know it's not a perfect honest to god representation of the US society and I usually also don't get all the references, because you can't spread pop culture to other cultures or generations by simply citing or mocking them. you have to go deeper than that. > but close ties does not translate immediately to the extent of shared culture diffusing through populations I think it does on a basic level. All of the countries on the west side share very similar views about worker rights, welfare state, public education and healthcare, women rights, minorities' rights, democracy, etc. etc. French is the language of diplomacy because French invented modern diplomacy when they were an important global empire and imposed their language on everybody else (and the reason why until the 80s in Italian schools French was the primary foreign language - I had to study it in elementary school from 1982 to 1987) For the same reason German is #1 mother tongue language in Europe, beating English. Think about religion in Europe: 75% are Christians,or at least they claim to be. I am an atheist so I have no horse in the race, but that happened through centuries of close relationships (and wars) Think about Europe before and after the USSR collapsed. If we compare western Europe to former eastern block countries we will find fundamental differences and that's completely normal (and sometimes scary), because we have been separated for a long time and we are still compensating for that time.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    > s more tied to personality and familiarity than culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a social group" because those things are usually misrepresented in a fictional show made to entertain the general public. That entertainment often misrepresents traits does not mean that it itself does not form part of those traits. E.g. nobody would suggest Monthy Python accurately reflects British culture, but Monthy Python is part of British culture, and in many ways shines a mirror to it that most people won't get unless they've lived here for a while. The more those things are shared and become a common heritage the more they come to form a shared culture. Shared fairy tales is a good example. > All of the countries on the west side share very similar views about worker rights, welfare state, public education and healthcare, women rights, minorities' rights, democracy, etc. etc. All of which had to do with extensive organising across borders for many decades, often out of necessity due to extensive repression (e.g. Marx had to flee both Prussia and France). If that is the level of ties you talk of, then sure, but that is a far more complex process, and it took a couple of centuries for Europe to harmonise on those issues despite that extensive effort. If anything this is a good example of my point of how slow this process is. The other examples you give are examples of diffusion of culture over far longer (centuries to millennia) periods, so hardly makes the point. > If we compare western Europe to former eastern block countries we will find fundamental differences and that's completely normal (and sometimes scary), because we have been separated for a long time and we are still compensating for that time. Those differences did not come into being with World War II. They were pronounced for centuries before that. The point is not that contact does not matter. Of course it does. It is that diffusion of culture takes a long time, but shared cultural heritage - including light entertainment is an important part of that, because you're never going to understand someone perfectly without sharing their cultural references, and they go all the way back to childhood. All those things you mention matter, but spreading them are easier the more people understand the same terms and references, and laugh at the same things, and know the same stories, and have heard the same music. Heck, you pointed to the EU, whose anthem was chosen in part because it is a piece of music that is near universally known, and as such provides a reference to a shared heritage.

vidarh 6y ago

That Netflix isn't intending to, and that we don't need it doesn't mean it isn't contributing to it. I don't see what Schengen had to do with anything - lack of passport checks is a nice convenience but that is all. Freedom of movement, sure, but that is separate from Schengen. And I think dismissing light entertainment as not being culture is pointlessly elitist. A whole lot of culture is light entertainment, and often what spreads to the most people. Most of Western Europe has close ties going back much further, but close ties does not translate immediately to the extent of shared culture diffusing through populations. Not least because there is a stark difference between ties that are confined to a subset of the populations vs. those that are more widely shared. I live in the UK, and have done so for 21 years, but come from Norway, and one of the first things I realised on moving here was how superficial cultural exchange often is - most people have no conception what it's like to live in another country. Even one they in many cases have often been to as a visitor. And e.g. shared entertainment is part of that. Growing up watching different things, talking about different things etc. contributes to cultural differences even decades later. I still experience people bringing up cultural references that they share that I don't for that reason. I agree with you regarding Erasmus for that reason, but I also think that seeing more shared programming will matter more than you think in giving more people shared reference points because it is a lasting and ongoing part of people's lives. Irrespective of Netflix' motivations.

africanboy 6y ago
> Freedom of movement, sure, but that is separate from Schengen. True, I meant Bosman not Schengen. > And I think dismissing light entertainment as not being culture is pointlessly elitist I am sorry if it came out that way, what I meant is that entertainment is more tied to personality and familiarity than culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a social group" because those things are usually misrepresented in a fictional show made to entertain the general public. I love Southpark because I love that kind of harsh sarcasm, but I know it's not a perfect honest to god representation of the US society and I usually also don't get all the references, because you can't spread pop culture to other cultures or generations by simply citing or mocking them. you have to go deeper than that. > but close ties does not translate immediately to the extent of shared culture diffusing through populations I think it does on a basic level. All of the countries on the west side share very similar views about worker rights, welfare state, public education and healthcare, women rights, minorities' rights, democracy, etc. etc. French is the language of diplomacy because French invented modern diplomacy when they were an important global empire and imposed their language on everybody else (and the reason why until the 80s in Italian schools French was the primary foreign language - I had to study it in elementary school from 1982 to 1987) For the same reason German is #1 mother tongue language in Europe, beating English. Think about religion in Europe: 75% are Christians,or at least they claim to be. I am an atheist so I have no horse in the race, but that happened through centuries of close relationships (and wars) Think about Europe before and after the USSR collapsed. If we compare western Europe to former eastern block countries we will find fundamental differences and that's completely normal (and sometimes scary), because we have been separated for a long time and we are still compensating for that time.
- vidarh 6y ago
  > s more tied to personality and familiarity than culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a social group" because those things are usually misrepresented in a fictional show made to entertain the general public. That entertainment often misrepresents traits does not mean that it itself does not form part of those traits. E.g. nobody would suggest Monthy Python accurately reflects British culture, but Monthy Python is part of British culture, and in many ways shines a mirror to it that most people won't get unless they've lived here for a while. The more those things are shared and become a common heritage the more they come to form a shared culture. Shared fairy tales is a good example. > All of the countries on the west side share very similar views about worker rights, welfare state, public education and healthcare, women rights, minorities' rights, democracy, etc. etc. All of which had to do with extensive organising across borders for many decades, often out of necessity due to extensive repression (e.g. Marx had to flee both Prussia and France). If that is the level of ties you talk of, then sure, but that is a far more complex process, and it took a couple of centuries for Europe to harmonise on those issues despite that extensive effort. If anything this is a good example of my point of how slow this process is. The other examples you give are examples of diffusion of culture over far longer (centuries to millennia) periods, so hardly makes the point. > If we compare western Europe to former eastern block countries we will find fundamental differences and that's completely normal (and sometimes scary), because we have been separated for a long time and we are still compensating for that time. Those differences did not come into being with World War II. They were pronounced for centuries before that. The point is not that contact does not matter. Of course it does. It is that diffusion of culture takes a long time, but shared cultural heritage - including light entertainment is an important part of that, because you're never going to understand someone perfectly without sharing their cultural references, and they go all the way back to childhood. All those things you mention matter, but spreading them are easier the more people understand the same terms and references, and laugh at the same things, and know the same stories, and have heard the same music. Heck, you pointed to the EU, whose anthem was chosen in part because it is a piece of music that is near universally known, and as such provides a reference to a shared heritage.