5 ms·

I guess it's "elitist circles". There were no enforced borders before WWI. It was common for people who could afford it to travel between big European cities. S

I guess it's "elitist circles". There were no enforced borders before WWI. It was common for people who could afford it to travel between big European cities. So there is a big chunk of shared culture actually.

lqet 6y ago
> There were no enforced borders before WWI. What do you mean by that? There were of course borders, and they were certainly enforced.
- Veen 6y ago
  There were borders and they were enforced, but during the 19th and early 20th Century, it was quite normal for artistic elites to move around, especially to cultural hotspots like the Paris of the high-modernist era or Vienna in the late 19th C. etc.
  - buran77 6y ago
    Indeed but the view that survived from so long ago isn't coming from the "regular folks" but from a selection of people closer or fully a part of the elite. They're the people who could pass their ideas and experiences through the time. It's more or less like reading Bezos' journal two centuries from now and imagining that it's probably a representative way of life for the early 21st century.
- _notreallyme_ 6y ago
  I meant that passport were ot required for traveling inside Europe before WWI. Crossing borders didn't require to obtain a document beforehand.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Not in today's sense: Until the late 18th century travellers were more likely to be monitored at the district or parish level. During the French revolutionary wars the Jacobins began to issue foreign travellers with a carte de sureté on arrival at the French border, but these early ‘passports’ were dependent on the ideological affiliations of the holder rather than their nationality and subsequently fell into disuse after the Napoleonic Wars. For much of the 19th century border control was sporadic and often non-existent, as millions of people migrated from Europe to the New World or within Europe itself without any passports or documentation. In 1942 the Austrian writer Stefan Zweig recalled the amazement of young people when he told them he had travelled across the world without a passport before the First World War. The situation had started to change following the global economic slump in 1873, when governments began to introduce immigration controls based on nationality and ethnicity for the first time. In 1882 the US government passed the first Chinese Exclusion Act in response to racist ‘Yellow Peril’ lobbying from California politicians. In 1885 Bismarck ordered the expulsion of 40,000 Polish workers from Germany to prevent the ‘Polonization’ of Prussia. In 1897 the South African colony of Natal introduced a language test for immigrants, which barred entry to anyone who could not fill out an application form in English – a test that was specifically intended to eliminate ‘coolie’ labour from India. The ‘Natal formula’ was also introduced in Australia in order to keep out Chinese migrant workers. https://www.historytoday.com/archive/history-matters/beyond-border https://www.historytoday.com/archive/history-matters/beyond-...
  - neither_color 6y ago
    That's fascinating. I was recently reflecting on how in 20 years Ill be telling young people "with a western passport, you used to be able to just book a flight and fly to almost any country you want and stay at least 30 days, but then covid happened." I'm so glad I got to do some nomad-ing for 2 years in my mid 20s. That level of openness is gone, and no the vaccine isn't bringing it fully back. The borders between The US, Mexico and Canada used to be a lot fuzzier too only 30 years ago. While there was SOME control, it was a lot more lax and after 9/11 it never came back. Once you give up some openness for security it never returns.

lqet 6y ago

> There were no enforced borders before WWI. What do you mean by that? There were of course borders, and they were certainly enforced.

Veen 6y ago
There were borders and they were enforced, but during the 19th and early 20th Century, it was quite normal for artistic elites to move around, especially to cultural hotspots like the Paris of the high-modernist era or Vienna in the late 19th C. etc.
- buran77 6y ago
  Indeed but the view that survived from so long ago isn't coming from the "regular folks" but from a selection of people closer or fully a part of the elite. They're the people who could pass their ideas and experiences through the time. It's more or less like reading Bezos' journal two centuries from now and imagining that it's probably a representative way of life for the early 21st century.
_notreallyme_ 6y ago
I meant that passport were ot required for traveling inside Europe before WWI. Crossing borders didn't require to obtain a document beforehand.
coldtea 6y ago
Not in today's sense: Until the late 18th century travellers were more likely to be monitored at the district or parish level. During the French revolutionary wars the Jacobins began to issue foreign travellers with a carte de sureté on arrival at the French border, but these early ‘passports’ were dependent on the ideological affiliations of the holder rather than their nationality and subsequently fell into disuse after the Napoleonic Wars. For much of the 19th century border control was sporadic and often non-existent, as millions of people migrated from Europe to the New World or within Europe itself without any passports or documentation. In 1942 the Austrian writer Stefan Zweig recalled the amazement of young people when he told them he had travelled across the world without a passport before the First World War. The situation had started to change following the global economic slump in 1873, when governments began to introduce immigration controls based on nationality and ethnicity for the first time. In 1882 the US government passed the first Chinese Exclusion Act in response to racist ‘Yellow Peril’ lobbying from California politicians. In 1885 Bismarck ordered the expulsion of 40,000 Polish workers from Germany to prevent the ‘Polonization’ of Prussia. In 1897 the South African colony of Natal introduced a language test for immigrants, which barred entry to anyone who could not fill out an application form in English – a test that was specifically intended to eliminate ‘coolie’ labour from India. The ‘Natal formula’ was also introduced in Australia in order to keep out Chinese migrant workers. https://www.historytoday.com/archive/history-matters/beyond-border https://www.historytoday.com/archive/history-matters/beyond-...
- neither_color 6y ago
  That's fascinating. I was recently reflecting on how in 20 years Ill be telling young people "with a western passport, you used to be able to just book a flight and fly to almost any country you want and stay at least 30 days, but then covid happened." I'm so glad I got to do some nomad-ing for 2 years in my mid 20s. That level of openness is gone, and no the vaccine isn't bringing it fully back. The borders between The US, Mexico and Canada used to be a lot fuzzier too only 30 years ago. While there was SOME control, it was a lot more lax and after 9/11 it never came back. Once you give up some openness for security it never returns.