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Roughly 36,000 traffic fatalities in US each year. My own friends and family have died senselessly in their youth. Why FSD isn't a societal priority is shocking

Roughly 36,000 traffic fatalities in US each year. My own friends and family have died senselessly in their youth. Why FSD isn't a societal priority is shocking to me, given the amount of political effort spent demonizing various things which in truth are far less deadly than human-driven cars.

Bishonen88 6y ago
Possibly because 36k doesn't even make it into top 10 [1]. And it's not that we're (humans) are not trying. The technology to make this happen (CPU, GPU and whatnot) wasn't there ~10 years ago AFAIK. And even today, what we have might not be good enough for full autonomous driving, regardless if you'd threw another 10.000 scientists at it (point in case: empty words from Elon Musk). [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
- dudeinjapan 6y ago
  It says "Accidents" are 173,040, traffic fatalities would then comprise 20% of all accidents. Aside from suicide, the rest of the top 10 causes are medical causes broadly associated with aging (which I'm sure many on this forum would also assert is preventable/curable.) FSD is perhaps the ultimate solution but there are common-sense road fixes that can be applied, a la Oslo, Norway which achieved zero annual traffic fatalities: https://thecityfix.com/blog/how-oslo-achieved-zero-pedestrian-and-bicycle-fatalities-and-how-others-can-apply-what-worked/ https://thecityfix.com/blog/how-oslo-achieved-zero-pedestria... FYI here is the article for the death of my friend. The philosophical differences between DOT and safety advocates are quite infuriating: https://pamplinmedia.com/scc/103-news/199653-buttressing-safety-of-barbur-boulevard https://pamplinmedia.com/scc/103-news/199653-buttressing-saf... [Don Hamilton, Oregon DOT public information officer] "There's nothing that engineering can do to stop drivers from harming themselves, and there's no way we can engineer from an irresponsible behavior." [Roger Averbeck, Chairman Southwest Neighborhoods Inc. Transportation Committee] "It's a very wide roadway (with a) wide cross section, very wide traffic lanes… ong distances in between traffic signals and safe crossing locations… and particularly in this… historic section, the land use is set way back away from the road with parking lots between the businesses and sidewalks. …This creates this wide, open environment that is definitely a factor in people’s behavior. People do not drive that fast… through the middle of Multnomah Village or even on Capitol Highway through Hillsdale in the middle of the night. It's the environment that people are in that encourages speeding." I wonder which worldview the HN crowd will more closely identify with?
  - mlac 6y ago
    I know that article is about your friend, so I’m trying to be sensitive here. The article says he was driving “80 to 100 mph in the 9000 block of Southwest Barbur Boulevard” in a Prius. This road has multiple stop lights, pedestrian crosswalks, and a speed limit of 40 mph. He crashed into a bus stop that could have had pedestrians. Assuming it was a new 2013 Prius, “going from 50 to 75mph takes a slow 8.3 seconds” (from an article about that car in 2013). So he was driving at least double the speed limit down a commercial corridor with a top speed of 40 mph, for an extended period of time (at least 20 seconds over the speed limit to hit 80 mph), with a car that was not designed to be driven that speed. He had no respect for the law, his safety, or the safety of others. You could say we need better laws (e.g. full self driving required) but he didn’t care about the laws then, and there will be outliers in the future won’t care about the FSD law and will override their cars to get on the road. For the next 30 years there will be millions of non-FSD cars mixed in with FSD, and then there will be classic cars. One could argue the road needs engineering changes to make the road so it’s impossible to drive faster than 40 mph, but how many ambulances or police vehicles use that road and need to go faster in true emergencies with the added safety of sirens and lights? And right now the road is engineered for a top speed for 40 mph. So the engineers put a speed limit of 40 mph. The vast majority of drivers on that road follow the speed limit (or close enough) to make 40 mph acceptable. Life doesn’t come with bumpers. Part of it is figuring out which things have lasting consequences and which things are reversible and recognizing the very real and often precipitous difference. Along the way we learn from others what the difference is, but it doesn’t mean we should necessarily make changes to the environment based on others’ mistakes. We can’t fill in the Grand Canyon because someone fell in. We can put up signs (speed limits) and guard rails in high risk areas, but can’t always re-engineer the environment. And even if it is re-engineered, someone will come along and exceed the engineering design of that environment. Maybe increased policing on that corridor would make sense to enforce the existing laws. This is Monday morning quarterbacking it 8 years later. I’m sorry for your loss. I’m sure he was a good guy. Sometimes people make mistakes and no matter how much one would like to say “if only it was designed differently” or “maybe we could prevent this in the future for someone else”, there’s a point that people need to be free to make the decisions and deal with the consequences. It doesn’t make it any less sad, disappointing, or frustrating to deal with.
berkes 6y ago
It's a tradeoff. Tech to avoid most road accidents is there, proven and operational for over a hundred years: trams, trains, metro's, buses* etc. We often make the tradeoff to risk our lives, because of the (percieved and real) downsides of choosing the safer option. This is not meant as a praise for PT, but to put down another datapoint on why people deliberately choose the more risky option. Both in (political) investment and on a daily base. *while certainly no to 100% safe, public transport, and slower transport like bikes and walking, is almost always safer than private vehicles, and where not (e.g. buses), many accidents happen because of the shared space with those private vehicles.
- dudeinjapan 6y ago
  I live in Tokyo and don't own a car. I only walk, bike and take public transport.
  - berkes 6y ago
    I'm sorry if I came over dismissive. I'm sorry for your losses and by no means tried to imply it was a fault of a "deliberate choice" made. Which my comment may imply. I was trying to say that traffic is dangerous, which your experiences seem to confirm. And that we, as society, somehow, don't push back against, but simply embrace and acknowledge. Every morning that we get into the car to work, again. And again.
tuatoru 6y ago
> Roughly 36,000 traffic fatalities in US each year. ... Why FSD isn't a societal priority is shocking Full self driving isn't necessarily safe. What you want is full self stopping. Full self stopping has the potential to dramatically reduce road fatalities. Rudimentary versions of FSS are fitted to many vehicle models (e.g Toyota Camry) already. Edit: such things as autonomous emergency braking, rear cross traffic alert (and reversing auto-brake), blind spot warning and lane change refusal if there is a vehicle in the blindspot, pedestrian avoidance -- all these and more are available today and all are better than nothing when it comes to reducing accidents.

Bishonen88 6y ago

Possibly because 36k doesn't even make it into top 10 [1]. And it's not that we're (humans) are not trying. The technology to make this happen (CPU, GPU and whatnot) wasn't there ~10 years ago AFAIK. And even today, what we have might not be good enough for full autonomous driving, regardless if you'd threw another 10.000 scientists at it (point in case: empty words from Elon Musk). [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

dudeinjapan 6y ago
It says "Accidents" are 173,040, traffic fatalities would then comprise 20% of all accidents. Aside from suicide, the rest of the top 10 causes are medical causes broadly associated with aging (which I'm sure many on this forum would also assert is preventable/curable.) FSD is perhaps the ultimate solution but there are common-sense road fixes that can be applied, a la Oslo, Norway which achieved zero annual traffic fatalities: https://thecityfix.com/blog/how-oslo-achieved-zero-pedestrian-and-bicycle-fatalities-and-how-others-can-apply-what-worked/ https://thecityfix.com/blog/how-oslo-achieved-zero-pedestria... FYI here is the article for the death of my friend. The philosophical differences between DOT and safety advocates are quite infuriating: https://pamplinmedia.com/scc/103-news/199653-buttressing-safety-of-barbur-boulevard https://pamplinmedia.com/scc/103-news/199653-buttressing-saf... [Don Hamilton, Oregon DOT public information officer] "There's nothing that engineering can do to stop drivers from harming themselves, and there's no way we can engineer from an irresponsible behavior." [Roger Averbeck, Chairman Southwest Neighborhoods Inc. Transportation Committee] "It's a very wide roadway (with a) wide cross section, very wide traffic lanes… ong distances in between traffic signals and safe crossing locations… and particularly in this… historic section, the land use is set way back away from the road with parking lots between the businesses and sidewalks. …This creates this wide, open environment that is definitely a factor in people’s behavior. People do not drive that fast… through the middle of Multnomah Village or even on Capitol Highway through Hillsdale in the middle of the night. It's the environment that people are in that encourages speeding." I wonder which worldview the HN crowd will more closely identify with?
- mlac 6y ago
  I know that article is about your friend, so I’m trying to be sensitive here. The article says he was driving “80 to 100 mph in the 9000 block of Southwest Barbur Boulevard” in a Prius. This road has multiple stop lights, pedestrian crosswalks, and a speed limit of 40 mph. He crashed into a bus stop that could have had pedestrians. Assuming it was a new 2013 Prius, “going from 50 to 75mph takes a slow 8.3 seconds” (from an article about that car in 2013). So he was driving at least double the speed limit down a commercial corridor with a top speed of 40 mph, for an extended period of time (at least 20 seconds over the speed limit to hit 80 mph), with a car that was not designed to be driven that speed. He had no respect for the law, his safety, or the safety of others. You could say we need better laws (e.g. full self driving required) but he didn’t care about the laws then, and there will be outliers in the future won’t care about the FSD law and will override their cars to get on the road. For the next 30 years there will be millions of non-FSD cars mixed in with FSD, and then there will be classic cars. One could argue the road needs engineering changes to make the road so it’s impossible to drive faster than 40 mph, but how many ambulances or police vehicles use that road and need to go faster in true emergencies with the added safety of sirens and lights? And right now the road is engineered for a top speed for 40 mph. So the engineers put a speed limit of 40 mph. The vast majority of drivers on that road follow the speed limit (or close enough) to make 40 mph acceptable. Life doesn’t come with bumpers. Part of it is figuring out which things have lasting consequences and which things are reversible and recognizing the very real and often precipitous difference. Along the way we learn from others what the difference is, but it doesn’t mean we should necessarily make changes to the environment based on others’ mistakes. We can’t fill in the Grand Canyon because someone fell in. We can put up signs (speed limits) and guard rails in high risk areas, but can’t always re-engineer the environment. And even if it is re-engineered, someone will come along and exceed the engineering design of that environment. Maybe increased policing on that corridor would make sense to enforce the existing laws. This is Monday morning quarterbacking it 8 years later. I’m sorry for your loss. I’m sure he was a good guy. Sometimes people make mistakes and no matter how much one would like to say “if only it was designed differently” or “maybe we could prevent this in the future for someone else”, there’s a point that people need to be free to make the decisions and deal with the consequences. It doesn’t make it any less sad, disappointing, or frustrating to deal with.

berkes 6y ago

It's a tradeoff. Tech to avoid most road accidents is there, proven and operational for over a hundred years: trams, trains, metro's, buses* etc. We often make the tradeoff to risk our lives, because of the (percieved and real) downsides of choosing the safer option. This is not meant as a praise for PT, but to put down another datapoint on why people deliberately choose the more risky option. Both in (political) investment and on a daily base. *while certainly no to 100% safe, public transport, and slower transport like bikes and walking, is almost always safer than private vehicles, and where not (e.g. buses), many accidents happen because of the shared space with those private vehicles.

dudeinjapan 6y ago
I live in Tokyo and don't own a car. I only walk, bike and take public transport.
- berkes 6y ago
  I'm sorry if I came over dismissive. I'm sorry for your losses and by no means tried to imply it was a fault of a "deliberate choice" made. Which my comment may imply. I was trying to say that traffic is dangerous, which your experiences seem to confirm. And that we, as society, somehow, don't push back against, but simply embrace and acknowledge. Every morning that we get into the car to work, again. And again.

tuatoru 6y ago

> Roughly 36,000 traffic fatalities in US each year. ... Why FSD isn't a societal priority is shocking Full self driving isn't necessarily safe. What you want is full self stopping. Full self stopping has the potential to dramatically reduce road fatalities. Rudimentary versions of FSS are fitted to many vehicle models (e.g Toyota Camry) already. Edit: such things as autonomous emergency braking, rear cross traffic alert (and reversing auto-brake), blind spot warning and lane change refusal if there is a vehicle in the blindspot, pedestrian avoidance -- all these and more are available today and all are better than nothing when it comes to reducing accidents.