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“Seem” is the key word here. I’d be fine if they stopped at the scenery, but this quote is just outright misleading and makes it look like a paid hype piece: >

“Seem” is the key word here. I’d be fine if they stopped at the scenery, but this quote is just outright misleading and makes it look like a paid hype piece: > “All aircraft have been reviewed with professional pilots who have many hours flying these aircraft or test pilots from the manufacturers to make sure they are controlled exactly like they should.” … In other words, when sim-pilots try to yank-and-bank an A320, they will get the exact same response as if they were flying the real thing. For contrast read some takes by professional pilots, here’s one[0]: > I’ll confess that I don’t know that type of modelling FS2020 is using. But given how it feels, and how it’s the child of FSX, I’m inclined to think it’s using a lookup table. This isn’t necessarily a problem — a good lookup table with many data points could be just as good, if not better than, a blade-element model. Unfortunately, FS2020 doesn’t seem to have a good lookup table. The the linear behaviour unrealistic and the non-linear modelling is terrible. > Maneuvering is laughably easy — and not because the aircraft handles nicely. It’s easy because the aircraft feels like it has no inertia. Yes, the real plane is very maneuverable and responsive, but there’s a “weight” to direction changes which is completely missing. In FS2020, you can instantly pull 60 degree or more turns, and exit them just as quickly. In XP11, there’s a residual tendency to turn that you have to arrest when exiting a maneuver. If you care about how the world looks, get MSFS. If you care about the physics of flying, get X-Plane—it’s an excellent project developed by a smaller company and sold for a fraction of the cost of Microsoft’s product. XP strives to provide the actual fine-grained simulation of flight surface behavior based on weight, shape, etc. (Yes, this means your computer will spend most of its resources simulating rather than painting a pretty picture.) If I had to draw a parallel, X-Plane is more or less the iRacing of flight sims, while MSFS2020 is closer to something like F1 2019. [0] https://medium.com/swlh/microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-no-competition-for-x-plane-11-e7cd0a1d121e https://medium.com/swlh/microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-no-c... Bias statement: I own a copy of XP11, otherwise not affiliated.

mopsi 6y ago
The article was written by someone who didn't even bother to read/watch Microsoft's promo material. Lookup tables are a thing of the past. Microsoft has published two videos showcasing their new aerodynamics simulation[1][2]. There seems to be a lot of pushback from old-timers who have sunken thousands of $$$ into X-Plane and its expansions (from terrain packages to cloud visuals), many of which now look inferior to what Microsoft's new simulator offers out of the box. [1] https://youtu.be/Bw-opH4f8Qg?t=394 https://youtu.be/Bw-opH4f8Qg?t=394 [2] https://youtu.be/2KdM2pT1hI8?t=253 https://youtu.be/2KdM2pT1hI8?t=253
- goblin89 6y ago
  That’s nice progress since FSX. I recall reading that new MSFS is compatible with FSX aircraft, which made me think they must rely on the same lookup tables at least as fallback. While I stand corrected on lookup tables, the author does make a point on how his personal experience of flying the same aircraft as he does IRL does not compare to in-sim experience with MSFS, and does with XP. I saw similar feedback elsewhere, Wikipedia mentions it too in their reception section. If they actually implemented a sound physics model, this potentially could be addressed by tweaking it in future updates, so there’s hope. For the record, I only bought XP11 itself for about $60 (no paid add-ons) and am flying the default Cessna. Most pro simmers appear to be invested in third-party aircraft for both sims, so I don’t know if there is so much unfounded bias.
Hawxy 6y ago
> I’ll confess that I don’t know that type of modelling FS2020 is using. But given how it feels, and how it’s the child of FSX, I’m inclined to think it’s using a lookup table I'll note that this statement is easily disprovable through the two aerodynamics videos that MFS published on Youtube (as another poster here has pointed out). From what I've seen and read, FS2020's aerodynamics simulation is more advanced than the one in X-Plane. The issue with aircraft performance might be to do with the current bugs surrounding turboprop engines: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/turboprop-engine-logic-issues/245144 https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/turboprop-engine-logic-...
- Daho0n 6y ago
  More advanced does not necessarily mean better or more realistic. It might but it doesn't seem to be the case here.
ppod 6y ago
That person is not a professional pilot. They have 160 hours. Their description of the handling does not match what many other real pilots say about MSFS2020, and, as others have said, they are wrong about how the model is implemented. Their description of the stall characteristics also does not match my experience of playing the game.
- sio8ohPi 6y ago
  Their description of stall characteristics matches what I've seen: * It's impossible to snap roll, even in the aerobatic planes. * It's impossible to enter a flat spin, even with aft CG well past allowed limits. * Spin recovery is automatic simply by neutralizing the rudder, no PARE needed, ever. * Single-engine handling is incredibly benign in all the twins, even below Vmca. I'm not a pilot, but I've spent a lot of time in other simulators. I can't reconcile FS2020's stall behavior with any of what I read in books.
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
> > Maneuvering is laughably easy — and not because the aircraft handles nicely. It’s easy because the aircraft feels like it has no inertia. Yes, the real plane is very maneuverable and responsive, but there’s a “weight” to direction changes which is completely missing. In FS2020, you can instantly pull 60 degree or more turns, and exit them just as quickly. In XP11, there’s a residual tendency to turn that you have to arrest when exiting a maneuver. Uh...what? Has this person actually played MSFS2020? Because planes definitely have inertia in MSFS2020. You can definitely feel it in the large planes like the A320. If I push the stick hard to the left, the banking begins slowly. And if I then stick right just as suddenly and hard, it keeps banking left for a couple seconds from the rolling inertia. Even the super-agile Extra 300S has inertia. Doing fast aileron rolls and then trying to revert to straight-and-level flight is tough, as it really wants to keep spinning.

mopsi 6y ago

The article was written by someone who didn't even bother to read/watch Microsoft's promo material. Lookup tables are a thing of the past. Microsoft has published two videos showcasing their new aerodynamics simulation[1][2]. There seems to be a lot of pushback from old-timers who have sunken thousands of $$$ into X-Plane and its expansions (from terrain packages to cloud visuals), many of which now look inferior to what Microsoft's new simulator offers out of the box. [1] https://youtu.be/Bw-opH4f8Qg?t=394 https://youtu.be/Bw-opH4f8Qg?t=394 [2] https://youtu.be/2KdM2pT1hI8?t=253 https://youtu.be/2KdM2pT1hI8?t=253

goblin89 6y ago
That’s nice progress since FSX. I recall reading that new MSFS is compatible with FSX aircraft, which made me think they must rely on the same lookup tables at least as fallback. While I stand corrected on lookup tables, the author does make a point on how his personal experience of flying the same aircraft as he does IRL does not compare to in-sim experience with MSFS, and does with XP. I saw similar feedback elsewhere, Wikipedia mentions it too in their reception section. If they actually implemented a sound physics model, this potentially could be addressed by tweaking it in future updates, so there’s hope. For the record, I only bought XP11 itself for about $60 (no paid add-ons) and am flying the default Cessna. Most pro simmers appear to be invested in third-party aircraft for both sims, so I don’t know if there is so much unfounded bias.

Hawxy 6y ago

> I’ll confess that I don’t know that type of modelling FS2020 is using. But given how it feels, and how it’s the child of FSX, I’m inclined to think it’s using a lookup table I'll note that this statement is easily disprovable through the two aerodynamics videos that MFS published on Youtube (as another poster here has pointed out). From what I've seen and read, FS2020's aerodynamics simulation is more advanced than the one in X-Plane. The issue with aircraft performance might be to do with the current bugs surrounding turboprop engines: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/turboprop-engine-logic-issues/245144 https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/turboprop-engine-logic-...

Daho0n 6y ago
More advanced does not necessarily mean better or more realistic. It might but it doesn't seem to be the case here.

ppod 6y ago

That person is not a professional pilot. They have 160 hours. Their description of the handling does not match what many other real pilots say about MSFS2020, and, as others have said, they are wrong about how the model is implemented. Their description of the stall characteristics also does not match my experience of playing the game.

sio8ohPi 6y ago
Their description of stall characteristics matches what I've seen: * It's impossible to snap roll, even in the aerobatic planes. * It's impossible to enter a flat spin, even with aft CG well past allowed limits. * Spin recovery is automatic simply by neutralizing the rudder, no PARE needed, ever. * Single-engine handling is incredibly benign in all the twins, even below Vmca. I'm not a pilot, but I've spent a lot of time in other simulators. I can't reconcile FS2020's stall behavior with any of what I read in books.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

> > Maneuvering is laughably easy — and not because the aircraft handles nicely. It’s easy because the aircraft feels like it has no inertia. Yes, the real plane is very maneuverable and responsive, but there’s a “weight” to direction changes which is completely missing. In FS2020, you can instantly pull 60 degree or more turns, and exit them just as quickly. In XP11, there’s a residual tendency to turn that you have to arrest when exiting a maneuver. Uh...what? Has this person actually played MSFS2020? Because planes definitely have inertia in MSFS2020. You can definitely feel it in the large planes like the A320. If I push the stick hard to the left, the banking begins slowly. And if I then stick right just as suddenly and hard, it keeps banking left for a couple seconds from the rolling inertia. Even the super-agile Extra 300S has inertia. Doing fast aileron rolls and then trying to revert to straight-and-level flight is tough, as it really wants to keep spinning.