4 ms·

Hope not to sound like a extreme liberal, but a lot of the highly illegal hard drugs, aren't nearly as hazardous or addicting as they made out to be and can hav

by zyb09 15y ago

Hope not to sound like a extreme liberal, but a lot of the highly illegal hard drugs, aren't nearly as hazardous or addicting as they made out to be and can have positive effects - IF used right. That includes psilocybin, MDMA, THC, DMT, LSD and whatnot. Others are clearly toxic and very unhealthy, like crack or meth. It's all matter of being well informed about the effect and right use of the drug, as well as a having clean products. The one thing that makes them dangerous is the potential of miss use is very high.

Wingman4l7 15y ago
I might remove MDMA from that list -- the head researcher at Johns Hopkins for this study was interviewed about a similar 2006 study he did; it mentions that studies at John Hopkins have shown the potential for brain damage from MDMA ("certain nerve cells", anyway). http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithspsilocybinQ http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...
- kristofferR 15y ago
  Heh, it's a shame that that myth is still around. The study was actually retracted by the "scientist" himself after he discovered that his lab had administered methamphetamine instead of MDMA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_toxicity_of_MDMA_on_dopamine_cells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_toxicity_o... However, MDMA should certainly not be taken more than a couple of times a year. It's not something you mess around with, we don't know enough about how it affects brain chemistry yet.
  - hyperbovine 15y ago
    > However, MDMA should certainly not be taken more than a couple of times a year. It's not something you mess around with, we don't know enough about how it affects brain chemistry yet. There are those who find those two sentences a bit curious, and those who do not.
    - gnosis 15y ago
      It's interesting how so many people will balk at taking an illegal drug because they "don't want to risk brain damage", and yet will think nothing of driving or riding in a car and risking both brain damage and death nearly every day. Mountain climbing, rock climbing, skydiving, scuba diving, and even just walking across the street all risk serious bodily injury, brain injury, and death. Yet most people won't freak out if you choose to engage in one of these activities. But if you dare to swallow a pill every now and then, you're treated as a reckless, immoral madman.
      - makmanalp 15y ago
        Why is this so surprising? It's because people understand what can go wrong and how it goes wrong in all of the activities you listed above. However I'll wager that many illegal drug users don't know what goes on at all and have no clue what can go wrong. Even when they do, I think it's pretty smart to acknowledge that brain chemistry is far more complicated than car crashes, and it's harder to figure out the unexpected / long term effects of one than the other.
        gnosis 15y ago
        Brain damage from any of the activities I listed above (including car crashes) could manifest itself in any number of ways. And it's impossible to tell ahead of time what the long-term effects of such brain damage will be. I'm not really sure that knowledge of what can go wrong explains much about the different attitudes society at large has towards drug users vs people who engage in other risky activities (including simply riding in a car). Most people know that if you ride in a car you could get in to a car accident and you could be maimed or killed or wind up a vegetable. How does knowing these potential effects explain the differing attitudes towards car drivers vs drug users?
        makmanalp 15y ago
        That's a pretty weak argument. We know that there are certain situations in those sports that can cause brain damage, like getting hit on the head by a rock and lack of oxygen. We know them fairly well, and the majority of people avoid them successfully. With rock climbing or driving or scuba diving, it's an "It might happen to you, but if you avoid these extreme situations it won't" situation whereas with taking drugs you can't really avoid pitfalls, other than taking care not to take too large a dose. With drugs it's likelier to be "you get smaller amounts of damage if you take smaller doses" or plain "we don't know what the fuck this thing does". I agree that it doesn't explain much about the attitudes. The default attitude should be ambivalent until we know more, not hostile.
- axolotl 15y ago
  It should be noted that there was a scandal involving MDMA research at Johns Hopkins. A study claimed to prove that MDMA caused brain damage, but in fact Methamphetamine had accidentally been administered instead of MDMA. http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2003/09/60328 http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2003/09/60328 Of course, this doesn't disprove other legitimate studies. The interview you link took place well after that scandal.
  - Wingman4l7 15y ago
    I was unaware that the research had been discredited; thanks for letting me know. That said, for those who are interested, here is the paper that the article is referring to: Griffiths, R.R., Johnson, M.W., Richards, W.A., Richards, B.D., McCann, U., & Jesse, R. (in press). Psilocybin occasioned mystical-type experiences: Immediate and persisting dose-related effects. Psychopharmacology. ... and here is the previous study he did: Griffiths, R.R., Richards, W.A., McCann, U., & Jesse, R. (2006). Psilocybin can occasion mystical experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance. Psychopharmacology, 187, 268-283. ...which was the study related to the aforementioned interview: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithspsilocybinQ http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...
- drivebyacct2 15y ago
  Well and the other problem with MDMA is that it's often meth or cocaine based, not actual "molly" or pure MDMA.
- rdl 15y ago
  MDMA is much more potentially dangerous than those other drugs, especially in an acute way. The "safety factor" (ratio between dangerous dose to useful dose) is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke. There are a few (DOB?) which have safety factors around 2-4x, which is really unsafe. erowid.org is probably a much better source of info on this topic than hacker news, though.
  - nolanw 15y ago
    The "safety factor"... is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke. --- I spy a repeat...
  - MichaelGG 15y ago
    According to Wikipedia, morphine has a therapeutic index of 70:1, and even cocaine is 15:1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index
city41 15y ago
After I went to Bonnaroo and saw people doing every drug imaginable, I read "Buzzed" [0], which is written by several Duke professors and covers just about every drug out there. It was really fascinating, and I was surprised to find that many drugs are not that harmful, or at the least not nearly as harmful as I assumed them to be. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Buzzed-Straight-Abused-Alcohol-Ecstasy/dp/0393329852/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308442313&sr=1-2 http://www.amazon.com/Buzzed-Straight-Abused-Alcohol-Ecstasy... (not an affiliate link)
bane 15y ago
Common nutmeg is more dangerous than most "hard" drugs...and we give it to children! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutmeg#Psychoactivity_and_toxicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutmeg#Psychoactivity_and_toxic...
- makmanalp 15y ago
  This is just pure bullshit. While I'm all for drug decriminalization, I'm always stunned by the dumb half-truths its proponents come up with as justification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin > It should also be added that when consuming raw nutmeg, only 5-15% of the mass consumed is an essential oil fraction, of which only roughly 4% is myristicin,[9] indicating the amount present overall in the nut is from 0.2-0.6%. http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf/Myristicin.pdf http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf... > Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice. Abnormally large quantities of a substance may be poisonous? Surprise! There is no WAY anywhere even close to that amount gets in anything we give to children. It takes my family several years to get through a single nutmeg. Myristicin is also part of anise, dill, carrot, fennel and black pepper.
  - bane 15y ago
    You have a funny way of disproving me. "This is just pure bullshit." Followed by a list of information about the dangerous psychoactive compound in nutmeg. 5-15 grams (on the low end) is not a lot of food item. A teaspoon = about 4grams. A tablespoon = about 14 grams. Here's 64.9 grams for less than $5. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANIC/dp/B00269YPBS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1308494487&sr=8-4 http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANI... From http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objectid=E88175E0-BDB5-82F8-F86A8ABCB1061C7C http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objectid=E88175E0-BDB... "Ingestion of five or more grams of nutmeg causes acute nutmeg poisoning, which includes giddiness, hallucinations, and feelings of depersonalization. Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice. Recovery usually occurs within 24 hours. Nevertheless, duration of action may extend beyond several days and even include death. /Nutmeg/ [Green RC, Jr; JAMA 171 (10): 1342-4 (1959); Painter JC et al; Clin Toxicol 4 (1): 1-4 (1971)] PEER REVIEWED" So basically, somebody trying to repeat the cinnamon challenge, but with nutmeg, and ate a heaping tablespoon of the stuff would introduce a lethal dosage of the substance into their body. So your argument is, because you personally only tap a little on your eggnog once a year, it's suddenly not a lethally toxic psychoactive substance in doses not much above the range that people might use in cooking? http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blspice3.htm http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blspice3.htm (recipes that all use at least 1/4 teaspoon of nutmeg)
hrasm 15y ago
But be warned that usage of psychotropic substances may act as a catalyst to bring out any latent psychological issues. Also, there is the possibility of a bad trip.

by zyb09 15y ago

Wingman4l7 15y ago

I might remove MDMA from that list -- the head researcher at Johns Hopkins for this study was interviewed about a similar 2006 study he did; it mentions that studies at John Hopkins have shown the potential for brain damage from MDMA ("certain nerve cells", anyway). http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithspsilocybinQ http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...

kristofferR 15y ago
Heh, it's a shame that that myth is still around. The study was actually retracted by the "scientist" himself after he discovered that his lab had administered methamphetamine instead of MDMA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_toxicity_of_MDMA_on_dopamine_cells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_toxicity_o... However, MDMA should certainly not be taken more than a couple of times a year. It's not something you mess around with, we don't know enough about how it affects brain chemistry yet.
- hyperbovine 15y ago
  > However, MDMA should certainly not be taken more than a couple of times a year. It's not something you mess around with, we don't know enough about how it affects brain chemistry yet. There are those who find those two sentences a bit curious, and those who do not.
  - gnosis 15y ago
    It's interesting how so many people will balk at taking an illegal drug because they "don't want to risk brain damage", and yet will think nothing of driving or riding in a car and risking both brain damage and death nearly every day. Mountain climbing, rock climbing, skydiving, scuba diving, and even just walking across the street all risk serious bodily injury, brain injury, and death. Yet most people won't freak out if you choose to engage in one of these activities. But if you dare to swallow a pill every now and then, you're treated as a reckless, immoral madman.
    - makmanalp 15y ago
      Why is this so surprising? It's because people understand what can go wrong and how it goes wrong in all of the activities you listed above. However I'll wager that many illegal drug users don't know what goes on at all and have no clue what can go wrong. Even when they do, I think it's pretty smart to acknowledge that brain chemistry is far more complicated than car crashes, and it's harder to figure out the unexpected / long term effects of one than the other.
      - gnosis 15y ago
        Brain damage from any of the activities I listed above (including car crashes) could manifest itself in any number of ways. And it's impossible to tell ahead of time what the long-term effects of such brain damage will be. I'm not really sure that knowledge of what can go wrong explains much about the different attitudes society at large has towards drug users vs people who engage in other risky activities (including simply riding in a car). Most people know that if you ride in a car you could get in to a car accident and you could be maimed or killed or wind up a vegetable. How does knowing these potential effects explain the differing attitudes towards car drivers vs drug users?
        makmanalp 15y ago
        That's a pretty weak argument. We know that there are certain situations in those sports that can cause brain damage, like getting hit on the head by a rock and lack of oxygen. We know them fairly well, and the majority of people avoid them successfully. With rock climbing or driving or scuba diving, it's an "It might happen to you, but if you avoid these extreme situations it won't" situation whereas with taking drugs you can't really avoid pitfalls, other than taking care not to take too large a dose. With drugs it's likelier to be "you get smaller amounts of damage if you take smaller doses" or plain "we don't know what the fuck this thing does". I agree that it doesn't explain much about the attitudes. The default attitude should be ambivalent until we know more, not hostile.
axolotl 15y ago
It should be noted that there was a scandal involving MDMA research at Johns Hopkins. A study claimed to prove that MDMA caused brain damage, but in fact Methamphetamine had accidentally been administered instead of MDMA. http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2003/09/60328 http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2003/09/60328 Of course, this doesn't disprove other legitimate studies. The interview you link took place well after that scandal.
- Wingman4l7 15y ago
  I was unaware that the research had been discredited; thanks for letting me know. That said, for those who are interested, here is the paper that the article is referring to: Griffiths, R.R., Johnson, M.W., Richards, W.A., Richards, B.D., McCann, U., & Jesse, R. (in press). Psilocybin occasioned mystical-type experiences: Immediate and persisting dose-related effects. Psychopharmacology. ... and here is the previous study he did: Griffiths, R.R., Richards, W.A., McCann, U., & Jesse, R. (2006). Psilocybin can occasion mystical experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance. Psychopharmacology, 187, 268-283. ...which was the study related to the aforementioned interview: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithspsilocybinQ http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...
drivebyacct2 15y ago
Well and the other problem with MDMA is that it's often meth or cocaine based, not actual "molly" or pure MDMA.
rdl 15y ago
MDMA is much more potentially dangerous than those other drugs, especially in an acute way. The "safety factor" (ratio between dangerous dose to useful dose) is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke. There are a few (DOB?) which have safety factors around 2-4x, which is really unsafe. erowid.org is probably a much better source of info on this topic than hacker news, though.
- nolanw 15y ago
  The "safety factor"... is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke. --- I spy a repeat...
- MichaelGG 15y ago
  According to Wikipedia, morphine has a therapeutic index of 70:1, and even cocaine is 15:1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index

city41 15y ago

After I went to Bonnaroo and saw people doing every drug imaginable, I read "Buzzed" [0], which is written by several Duke professors and covers just about every drug out there. It was really fascinating, and I was surprised to find that many drugs are not that harmful, or at the least not nearly as harmful as I assumed them to be. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Buzzed-Straight-Abused-Alcohol-Ecstasy/dp/0393329852/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308442313&sr=1-2 http://www.amazon.com/Buzzed-Straight-Abused-Alcohol-Ecstasy... (not an affiliate link)

bane 15y ago

Common nutmeg is more dangerous than most "hard" drugs...and we give it to children! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutmeg#Psychoactivity_and_toxicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutmeg#Psychoactivity_and_toxic...

makmanalp 15y ago
This is just pure bullshit. While I'm all for drug decriminalization, I'm always stunned by the dumb half-truths its proponents come up with as justification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin > It should also be added that when consuming raw nutmeg, only 5-15% of the mass consumed is an essential oil fraction, of which only roughly 4% is myristicin,[9] indicating the amount present overall in the nut is from 0.2-0.6%. http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf/Myristicin.pdf http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf... > Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice. Abnormally large quantities of a substance may be poisonous? Surprise! There is no WAY anywhere even close to that amount gets in anything we give to children. It takes my family several years to get through a single nutmeg. Myristicin is also part of anise, dill, carrot, fennel and black pepper.
- bane 15y ago
  You have a funny way of disproving me. "This is just pure bullshit." Followed by a list of information about the dangerous psychoactive compound in nutmeg. 5-15 grams (on the low end) is not a lot of food item. A teaspoon = about 4grams. A tablespoon = about 14 grams. Here's 64.9 grams for less than $5. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANIC/dp/B00269YPBS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1308494487&sr=8-4 http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANI... From http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objectid=E88175E0-BDB5-82F8-F86A8ABCB1061C7C http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objectid=E88175E0-BDB... "Ingestion of five or more grams of nutmeg causes acute nutmeg poisoning, which includes giddiness, hallucinations, and feelings of depersonalization. Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice. Recovery usually occurs within 24 hours. Nevertheless, duration of action may extend beyond several days and even include death. /Nutmeg/ [Green RC, Jr; JAMA 171 (10): 1342-4 (1959); Painter JC et al; Clin Toxicol 4 (1): 1-4 (1971)] PEER REVIEWED" So basically, somebody trying to repeat the cinnamon challenge, but with nutmeg, and ate a heaping tablespoon of the stuff would introduce a lethal dosage of the substance into their body. So your argument is, because you personally only tap a little on your eggnog once a year, it's suddenly not a lethally toxic psychoactive substance in doses not much above the range that people might use in cooking? http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blspice3.htm http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blspice3.htm (recipes that all use at least 1/4 teaspoon of nutmeg)

hrasm 15y ago

But be warned that usage of psychotropic substances may act as a catalyst to bring out any latent psychological issues. Also, there is the possibility of a bad trip.