4 ms·

Kind of, the filibuster isn't so much in the rules as it's a consequence of other rules and (imo) a poorly designed government. The Senate was originally setup

by rtkwe 6y ago

Kind of, the filibuster isn't so much in the rules as it's a consequence of other rules and (imo) a poorly designed government. The Senate was originally setup with truly unlimited debate, this is a pretty bad idea on the face of it because it allows a pretty small group to potentially completely stall the whole of the US government's law making apparatus. [0] So cloture was added which added a way to officially close debate on a bill to avoid that. It requires more coordination but still introduces an extra veto point into the government that most modern democracies don't have. It's an extremely powerful tool for the minority. That very power is a reason I think there's a few hold outs on the Democrat side that don't want to get rid of it. The senate is naturally stacked against the democrats as the parties are currently aligned so a few don't want to risk giving up that power. There's also a number who (at least claim to) believe that the unlimited debate is an important part of the Senate. Personally I think it's a relic that's getting in the way of passing the exact legislation that will make Democrats more popular (and make it easier to vote to counteract some extremely blatant voter suppression happening in red states). [0] consider 3 senators working 8 hour shifts of 8 on 16 off. That would be maintainable for a very long time.

dcow 6y ago
The US govt is heavily calibrated on the side of minority political factions in order to protect minorities from “oppressive” majority rule. It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. What recent events tell me is that we’re looking to the federal government to do more than it is/was meant to do. If that’s dated so be it but I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare.
- kelnos 6y ago
  > It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government. > I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare. Because they're ironically forbidden by federal law. Several legislators in CA would love to bring a statewide single-payer healthcare bill forward, but funding it would require using federal Medicare dollars in ways that require permission from the US Congress. Guess how likely that'll be forthcoming?
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    > I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government. I think this is a big sustaining source of disillusion with the US government. Cynical minorities have a pretty easy way to make people hate the opposition by just blocking everything, this was even explicitly acknowledged by McConnel as their strategy. Block everything no matter how small.
    - dcow 6y ago
      I get it and don't agree with what the current republican party is doing, but that’s almost besides the point. If we can’t get an agenda accomplished then perhaps it’s too overarching to be agreeable to or considered fundamental by most of Americans. Now, it’s also possible that we’re suffering from the two party hell we’ve created and that we have an overstated (too large) minority party that doesn't reflect the wishes of any reasonable fraction of our people... I tend to think this is more of a problem than people realize. We need voting reform to bring more plurality into govt operations and lawmaking.
      - cacarr 6y ago
        > If we can’t get an agenda accomplished then perhaps it’s too overarching to be agreeable to or considered fundamental by most of Americans. Republican Senators don't seem to care if an agenda is supported by a majority of registered Republican voters. Anyhow, the Senate must be reformed or abolished. Land does not require representation. Give every state a guaranteed 2 senators, I suppose, but some reasonable formula should be implemented that apportions more populous states additional senators.
- rtkwe 6y ago
  For starters the Federal level has access to waaay more money and sources of money (including just 'printing' money, investment taxes, etc.) than any state and the larger the population the more power a government has in bargaining. It's also much easier for companies and people to just abandon a state to avoid paying new taxes than it is for them to leave the US entirely. The power of the minority was a crappy compromise to get the less densely populated states (not coincidentally southern slave owning states) to sign on to the constitution. The original Articles of Confederation were even worse requiring basically unanimity to pass federal laws and taxes. The whole job of the Senate was to appease those same states. Do any other countries have this kind of explicit carve out for land (essentially) getting an equal weight?

by rtkwe 6y ago

dcow 6y ago

The US govt is heavily calibrated on the side of minority political factions in order to protect minorities from “oppressive” majority rule. It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. What recent events tell me is that we’re looking to the federal government to do more than it is/was meant to do. If that’s dated so be it but I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare.

kelnos 6y ago
> It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government. > I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare. Because they're ironically forbidden by federal law. Several legislators in CA would love to bring a statewide single-payer healthcare bill forward, but funding it would require using federal Medicare dollars in ways that require permission from the US Congress. Guess how likely that'll be forthcoming?
- rtkwe 6y ago
  > I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government. I think this is a big sustaining source of disillusion with the US government. Cynical minorities have a pretty easy way to make people hate the opposition by just blocking everything, this was even explicitly acknowledged by McConnel as their strategy. Block everything no matter how small.
  - dcow 6y ago
    I get it and don't agree with what the current republican party is doing, but that’s almost besides the point. If we can’t get an agenda accomplished then perhaps it’s too overarching to be agreeable to or considered fundamental by most of Americans. Now, it’s also possible that we’re suffering from the two party hell we’ve created and that we have an overstated (too large) minority party that doesn't reflect the wishes of any reasonable fraction of our people... I tend to think this is more of a problem than people realize. We need voting reform to bring more plurality into govt operations and lawmaking.
    - cacarr 6y ago
      > If we can’t get an agenda accomplished then perhaps it’s too overarching to be agreeable to or considered fundamental by most of Americans. Republican Senators don't seem to care if an agenda is supported by a majority of registered Republican voters. Anyhow, the Senate must be reformed or abolished. Land does not require representation. Give every state a guaranteed 2 senators, I suppose, but some reasonable formula should be implemented that apportions more populous states additional senators.
rtkwe 6y ago
For starters the Federal level has access to waaay more money and sources of money (including just 'printing' money, investment taxes, etc.) than any state and the larger the population the more power a government has in bargaining. It's also much easier for companies and people to just abandon a state to avoid paying new taxes than it is for them to leave the US entirely. The power of the minority was a crappy compromise to get the less densely populated states (not coincidentally southern slave owning states) to sign on to the constitution. The original Articles of Confederation were even worse requiring basically unanimity to pass federal laws and taxes. The whole job of the Senate was to appease those same states. Do any other countries have this kind of explicit carve out for land (essentially) getting an equal weight?