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I agree that the hardware omissions are blatant copy from Apple as the way to have more markup and revenue from accessories, software services but I like to dif

I agree that the hardware omissions are blatant copy from Apple as the way to have more markup and revenue from accessories, software services but I like to differ on the OS front. Android's power user ecosystem couldn't be matched in iOS. Even without root, Tasker can automate every single aspect of the OS - Want to send and receive WhatsApp messages over email?[1], Want better accessibility e.g. Voice summary of news?[2], Want a butt triggered pomodoro timer?[3]. Termux runs a Linux container and it can run complete Linux distribution inside it with PRoot[4]. Best of all, Tasker & Termux can communicate with each other for endless possibilities. Of course Google can mess it up with their policy/API changes for Playstore, but that's where 3rd party app stores like f-droid comes in and can ensure open-source apps like Termux can be published without hurdles. Not to mention the privacy focused apps on f-droid. And if one doesn't want anything to do with Google, LineageOS has proven itself to be a viable replacement for stock android. [1] https://abishekmuthian.com/send-and-receive-whatsapp-messages-through-email/ https://abishekmuthian.com/send-and-receive-whatsapp-message... [2] https://abishekmuthian.com/voice-summary-of-news/ https://abishekmuthian.com/voice-summary-of-news/ [3] https://abishekmuthian.com/butt-pomodoro-a-butt-triggered-pomodoro-timer/ https://abishekmuthian.com/butt-pomodoro-a-butt-triggered-po... [4] https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/PRoot https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/PRoot

pjmlp 6y ago
Termux is on their way out as they refuse to implement in Java the requirements of newer Android versions, not exposed as NDK APIs.
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  Did you mean way out of Google Play Store due API 29? As that's why I mentioned f-droid and f-droid doesn't require API-target restrictions. Termux is being updated only on f-droid because of those changes. If you meant Termux on Android 11, Here's the quote from the developer- >"Most of things work on Android 11. Only few packages have issues (including zsh) and restricted /proc/net which renders network information utilities like netstat unusable without root. Rest seems working correctly unless hit by some known issue not related to Android 10+."[1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/termux/comments/mj142i/whats_the_future_of_termux/ https://www.reddit.com/r/termux/comments/mj142i/whats_the_fu...
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Yes, standard Android, I don't care about deviations like f-droid. Some of those issues are manageable when making use of Java APIs, naturally not all of them, and even less if one refuses to touch Java.
    - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
      > Some of those issues are manageable when making use of Java APIs, naturally not all of them, and even less if one refuses to touch Java. What do you mean by that and how does it affect not being invoke exec() in android 10 without making changes to SELinux?
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        You don't call exec(), rather the Android Java APIs, that is the whole point that they don't want to change, more Java and less C POSIX.
        Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
        Sorry that doesn't make any sense. The whole point of Termux is to make GNU/Linux tools available on Android without root by compiling it for the Termux environment, to run those packages from the user directory it needs exec(). You seem to suggest that it rather be android packages, for that you don't need Termux in the first place.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        It makes perfectly sense, Android OS is not GNU/Linux, the Linux syscalls never were or will ever be part of the public API. The public API is based on Java and a couple of NDK APIs, clearly enumerated by Google as stable APIs. They can either adapt themselves to this reality, make use of those APIs in a mingw like way, creating wrappers, or die in their faith that Android is Linux, alongside countless attempts to GNU/Linux phones.
nl 6y ago
> Even without root, Tasker can automate every single aspect of the OS - Want to send and receive WhatsApp messages over email?[1], Want better accessibility e.g. Voice summary of news?[2], Want a butt triggered pomodoro timer?[3]. Termux runs a Linux container and it can run complete Linux distribution inside it with PRoot[4]. Best of all, Tasker & Termux can communicate with each other for endless possibilities. Does anyone actually care about any of these things? I'm a long time Android user and I've installed both Tasker and Termux. Never found anything useful for them and uninstalled them. I work in a software company, with lots of people who experiment with home automation etc - the kinds of things where this could be useful. Instead everyone uses RPis, and controls them with apps from their iPhones. I'm sure there are a few people who actually do this stuff. But in my experience they are the kinds of people who enjoy working around barriers, so would find a different way to achieve the same things anyway.
- nindalf 6y ago
  > Does anyone actually care about any of these things? On HN, sure. The other 3.6 billion smartphone users out there? No. The top voted opinions on HN are niche and don't represent the general population in any way. You can see this effect on other threads. Here are a few classic examples. - Everyone on HN hates Facebook, and yet 2 billion+ people use it every day. - Privacy is a paramount concern on HN, more important than anything else, and yet billions of people don't care as long as their dick pics are safe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRWxk7o-QlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRWxk7o-QlI). - HN users hate ads and would happily pay for the privilege of eliminating ads. In the real world? Youtube has 2 billion monthly active users, only 1% of whom pay to eliminate ads. - The ideal HN smartphone is one that has software support for years, is rootable, can have it's OS changed on a whim, can install any app from any app store. Hardware should be modular, with a swappable battery, camera etc. So Fairphone, basically. Units sold - 200k in 5 years. iPhone, the exact opposite of this in every respect (except software support) - 1 Billion in 5 years. What I've said is so obvious it's self evident. But now and then people do get surprised and maybe annoyed when they find the world doesn't reflect the gospel truth preached on HN. At the time of this writing, your comment is actually downvoted ... for implying that the general population might not be Tasker-Termux installing, life automating power users.
rbreaves 6y ago
The amount of work & installs you have to do for all that is laughable though.. assuming you can get a jailbroken iPhone.. the terminal app is easy to install.. small install & full on posix compliant terminal is right there w/ a more normal pkg manager to boot. I dunno shortcuts & a jailbroken iPhone is equally powerful & there’s far less tinkering involved imo. But I’m sure you’ve not used an iPhone enough to realize that.
- rymate1234 6y ago
  Having to jailbreak an iPhone is what makes the iPhone more work -- Termux is a single install and works on stock Android, and comes with a package manager
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  >assuming you can get a jailbroken iPhone. And the security tradeoffs therein. >But I’m sure you’ve not used an iPhone enough to realize that. Was that ad hominem necessary? I've used iOS devices regularly w/o Jailbreak since 2010 until last year. I've spent several thousand dollars personally and my business money on Apple products. My comment was purely regarding the technical nature of the OS and was not directed against any brand. I know people are religious about brands, but private businesses don't deserve such dedication and I feel it's unhealthy overall.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > assuming you can get a jailbroken iPhone This is a massive assumption.
  - rbreaves 6y ago
    Well like I said, assuming lol. But generally speaking if I am on the terminal of iOS vs the terminal on Android I feel more confident that I can bring in whatever packages I want as it was really designed to be a full desktop class citizen underneath it all. Android in contrast is extremely locked down in other ways that simply require you to use abstraction layers to run pretty much anything. To me it's the difference between installing a full linux OS on a chromebook vs running it in chroot (crouton) or google's new virtualized method. They both have their trade offs while running a full linux OS pretty much has 0 trade offs. That's all that I was getting at. Of course there are pros to having a more locked down model at the expense of performance or being able to run something directly on metal at times. iOS is a strange combination of either being insanely secure or not so much, but in either case the raw performance and stability is almost always there in comparison.

pjmlp 6y ago

Termux is on their way out as they refuse to implement in Java the requirements of newer Android versions, not exposed as NDK APIs.

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
Did you mean way out of Google Play Store due API 29? As that's why I mentioned f-droid and f-droid doesn't require API-target restrictions. Termux is being updated only on f-droid because of those changes. If you meant Termux on Android 11, Here's the quote from the developer- >"Most of things work on Android 11. Only few packages have issues (including zsh) and restricted /proc/net which renders network information utilities like netstat unusable without root. Rest seems working correctly unless hit by some known issue not related to Android 10+."[1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/termux/comments/mj142i/whats_the_future_of_termux/ https://www.reddit.com/r/termux/comments/mj142i/whats_the_fu...
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Yes, standard Android, I don't care about deviations like f-droid. Some of those issues are manageable when making use of Java APIs, naturally not all of them, and even less if one refuses to touch Java.
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    > Some of those issues are manageable when making use of Java APIs, naturally not all of them, and even less if one refuses to touch Java. What do you mean by that and how does it affect not being invoke exec() in android 10 without making changes to SELinux?
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      You don't call exec(), rather the Android Java APIs, that is the whole point that they don't want to change, more Java and less C POSIX.
      - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
        Sorry that doesn't make any sense. The whole point of Termux is to make GNU/Linux tools available on Android without root by compiling it for the Termux environment, to run those packages from the user directory it needs exec(). You seem to suggest that it rather be android packages, for that you don't need Termux in the first place.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        It makes perfectly sense, Android OS is not GNU/Linux, the Linux syscalls never were or will ever be part of the public API. The public API is based on Java and a couple of NDK APIs, clearly enumerated by Google as stable APIs. They can either adapt themselves to this reality, make use of those APIs in a mingw like way, creating wrappers, or die in their faith that Android is Linux, alongside countless attempts to GNU/Linux phones.

nl 6y ago

> Even without root, Tasker can automate every single aspect of the OS - Want to send and receive WhatsApp messages over email?[1], Want better accessibility e.g. Voice summary of news?[2], Want a butt triggered pomodoro timer?[3]. Termux runs a Linux container and it can run complete Linux distribution inside it with PRoot[4]. Best of all, Tasker & Termux can communicate with each other for endless possibilities. Does anyone actually care about any of these things? I'm a long time Android user and I've installed both Tasker and Termux. Never found anything useful for them and uninstalled them. I work in a software company, with lots of people who experiment with home automation etc - the kinds of things where this could be useful. Instead everyone uses RPis, and controls them with apps from their iPhones. I'm sure there are a few people who actually do this stuff. But in my experience they are the kinds of people who enjoy working around barriers, so would find a different way to achieve the same things anyway.

nindalf 6y ago
> Does anyone actually care about any of these things? On HN, sure. The other 3.6 billion smartphone users out there? No. The top voted opinions on HN are niche and don't represent the general population in any way. You can see this effect on other threads. Here are a few classic examples. - Everyone on HN hates Facebook, and yet 2 billion+ people use it every day. - Privacy is a paramount concern on HN, more important than anything else, and yet billions of people don't care as long as their dick pics are safe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRWxk7o-QlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRWxk7o-QlI). - HN users hate ads and would happily pay for the privilege of eliminating ads. In the real world? Youtube has 2 billion monthly active users, only 1% of whom pay to eliminate ads. - The ideal HN smartphone is one that has software support for years, is rootable, can have it's OS changed on a whim, can install any app from any app store. Hardware should be modular, with a swappable battery, camera etc. So Fairphone, basically. Units sold - 200k in 5 years. iPhone, the exact opposite of this in every respect (except software support) - 1 Billion in 5 years. What I've said is so obvious it's self evident. But now and then people do get surprised and maybe annoyed when they find the world doesn't reflect the gospel truth preached on HN. At the time of this writing, your comment is actually downvoted ... for implying that the general population might not be Tasker-Termux installing, life automating power users.

rbreaves 6y ago

The amount of work & installs you have to do for all that is laughable though.. assuming you can get a jailbroken iPhone.. the terminal app is easy to install.. small install & full on posix compliant terminal is right there w/ a more normal pkg manager to boot. I dunno shortcuts & a jailbroken iPhone is equally powerful & there’s far less tinkering involved imo. But I’m sure you’ve not used an iPhone enough to realize that.

rymate1234 6y ago
Having to jailbreak an iPhone is what makes the iPhone more work -- Termux is a single install and works on stock Android, and comes with a package manager
Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
>assuming you can get a jailbroken iPhone. And the security tradeoffs therein. >But I’m sure you’ve not used an iPhone enough to realize that. Was that ad hominem necessary? I've used iOS devices regularly w/o Jailbreak since 2010 until last year. I've spent several thousand dollars personally and my business money on Apple products. My comment was purely regarding the technical nature of the OS and was not directed against any brand. I know people are religious about brands, but private businesses don't deserve such dedication and I feel it's unhealthy overall.
saagarjha 6y ago
> assuming you can get a jailbroken iPhone This is a massive assumption.
- rbreaves 6y ago
  Well like I said, assuming lol. But generally speaking if I am on the terminal of iOS vs the terminal on Android I feel more confident that I can bring in whatever packages I want as it was really designed to be a full desktop class citizen underneath it all. Android in contrast is extremely locked down in other ways that simply require you to use abstraction layers to run pretty much anything. To me it's the difference between installing a full linux OS on a chromebook vs running it in chroot (crouton) or google's new virtualized method. They both have their trade offs while running a full linux OS pretty much has 0 trade offs. That's all that I was getting at. Of course there are pros to having a more locked down model at the expense of performance or being able to run something directly on metal at times. iOS is a strange combination of either being insanely secure or not so much, but in either case the raw performance and stability is almost always there in comparison.