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Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You conflate scaling Tesla up

Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You conflate scaling Tesla up with scaling the technology up. You want everyone to invest in Tesla so that Tesla can fulfill the promises Tesla made to Tesla owners.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
> Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You misunderstand. All Tesla vehicles can use Superchargers. S and X owners paid for the network build out for the 3 and Y buyers (and future S and X owners, which there are less of naturally due to the 3 and Y cannibalizing higher end sales [Musk's statement from an earnings call indicates they continue to sell the S and X as "art pieces" and for "sentimental reasons", backed up by their most recent quarterly report]). Tesla has offered the network to other automakers in a cost sharing agreement, and publicly no one has agreed to that (privately, an automaker is testing interoperability). The point is that someone has to make the investment, those funds have to come from someone's pocket. The US government didn't cough up significant EV charger funds until this year as part of COVID relief [1] (and the goal is for 500k chargers by 2030 ಠ_ಠ). As of February 18, 2021, Tesla operates over 23,277 Superchargers in over 2,564 stations worldwide (an average of 9 chargers per station). Tesla's Supercharger network build was started in 2012 [2]. > You conflate scaling Tesla up with scaling the technology up. You want everyone to invest in Tesla so that Tesla can fulfill the promises Tesla made to Tesla owners. No. I don't care if you invest in Tesla. I'm not invested in Tesla. It won't even matter if you invest in Tesla (institutional money and index funds are driving the show there, retail is just along for the ride). You're arguing that someone should come along and invest in self driving for everyone's mutual benefit, and that entity doesn't exist. Tesla likely won't even be held accountable for false marketing if they can't deliver on FSD other than a class action (for those who were savvy enough to opt out of arbitration) where purchasers receive a trivial payout, attorneys walk away with a chunk of change, but it's a slap on the wrist compared to revenue and enterprise value (which was able to grow faster than the potential penalty cost of Musk's tenuous promises). Not saying it's fair, nor right, just how it's always played out. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/03/31/fact-sheet-the-american-jobs-plan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... (Control-F "EV chargers") [2] https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-revolutionary-supercharger-enabling https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-rev... ("Tesla Motors Launches Revolutionary Supercharger Enabling Convenient Long Distance Driving", September 24th, 2012)
- mindslight 6y ago
  It's going to be interesting when class actions start happening for companies pushing the mandatory arbitration garbage. If a class action still proceeds because enough people have opted out, then it will demonstrate real damages. After which, everybody who didn't opt out will have a pretty strong case to arbitrate asking for at least the same compensation - while a settlement isn't an admission of guilt it does demonstrate merit, and the arbitrator will not want to admit that they're an outright sham. And once this gets popular (eg a one-stop website for submitting your arbitration claim), the company is going to be stuck paying all of those separate arbitration case fees as they promised.
  - DavidPeiffer 6y ago
    >And once this gets popular (eg a one-stop website for submitting your arbitration claim), the company is going to be stuck paying all of those separate arbitration case fees as they promised. Almost exactly a year ago, the article below was published talking about this exact thing. Since companies tried restricting class action lawsuits, there are now instances of death by 1,000 arbitrations. Judge William Alsup, who also handled Oracle vs. Google, is quoted: "Your law firm and all the defense law firms have tried for 30 years to keep plaintiffs out of court, and so finally someone says, ‘OK, we’ll take you to arbitration,’ and suddenly it’s not in your interest anymore. Now you’re wiggling around, trying to find some way to squirm out of your agreement. There is a lot of poetic justice here." The companies made this bed, and they don't seem to like laying in it. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/business/arbitration-overload.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/business/arbitration-over...
    - mindslight 6y ago
      Ah that sounds familiar but I must have forgotten. It looks like the arbitrators are reinventing class action lawsuits (which makes sense). Of course that doesn't do anything to fix the larger issue of the huge conflict of interest.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > All Tesla vehicles can use Superchargers. The chargers should be open to all makes and models of EV. Single brand plugs and chargers is wasteful infrastructure. Tesla switched to CCS in Europe. They should switch to CCS in the US as well. The next step is to open the chargers to all EVs like the other charging networks do. You can fuel an ICE car at any fuel station so you should be able to charge an EV at any charging station. Not being able to do so makes EVs less practical than internal combustion vehicles.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

> Model S and X buyers are the only ones who can use them. Therefore logic dictates they should be the only ones who pay for them. You misunderstand. All Tesla vehicles can use Superchargers. S and X owners paid for the network build out for the 3 and Y buyers (and future S and X owners, which there are less of naturally due to the 3 and Y cannibalizing higher end sales [Musk's statement from an earnings call indicates they continue to sell the S and X as "art pieces" and for "sentimental reasons", backed up by their most recent quarterly report]). Tesla has offered the network to other automakers in a cost sharing agreement, and publicly no one has agreed to that (privately, an automaker is testing interoperability). The point is that someone has to make the investment, those funds have to come from someone's pocket. The US government didn't cough up significant EV charger funds until this year as part of COVID relief [1] (and the goal is for 500k chargers by 2030 ಠ_ಠ). As of February 18, 2021, Tesla operates over 23,277 Superchargers in over 2,564 stations worldwide (an average of 9 chargers per station). Tesla's Supercharger network build was started in 2012 [2]. > You conflate scaling Tesla up with scaling the technology up. You want everyone to invest in Tesla so that Tesla can fulfill the promises Tesla made to Tesla owners. No. I don't care if you invest in Tesla. I'm not invested in Tesla. It won't even matter if you invest in Tesla (institutional money and index funds are driving the show there, retail is just along for the ride). You're arguing that someone should come along and invest in self driving for everyone's mutual benefit, and that entity doesn't exist. Tesla likely won't even be held accountable for false marketing if they can't deliver on FSD other than a class action (for those who were savvy enough to opt out of arbitration) where purchasers receive a trivial payout, attorneys walk away with a chunk of change, but it's a slap on the wrist compared to revenue and enterprise value (which was able to grow faster than the potential penalty cost of Musk's tenuous promises). Not saying it's fair, nor right, just how it's always played out. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/03/31/fact-sheet-the-american-jobs-plan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... (Control-F "EV chargers") [2] https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-revolutionary-supercharger-enabling https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-motors-launches-rev... ("Tesla Motors Launches Revolutionary Supercharger Enabling Convenient Long Distance Driving", September 24th, 2012)

mindslight 6y ago
It's going to be interesting when class actions start happening for companies pushing the mandatory arbitration garbage. If a class action still proceeds because enough people have opted out, then it will demonstrate real damages. After which, everybody who didn't opt out will have a pretty strong case to arbitrate asking for at least the same compensation - while a settlement isn't an admission of guilt it does demonstrate merit, and the arbitrator will not want to admit that they're an outright sham. And once this gets popular (eg a one-stop website for submitting your arbitration claim), the company is going to be stuck paying all of those separate arbitration case fees as they promised.
- DavidPeiffer 6y ago
  >And once this gets popular (eg a one-stop website for submitting your arbitration claim), the company is going to be stuck paying all of those separate arbitration case fees as they promised. Almost exactly a year ago, the article below was published talking about this exact thing. Since companies tried restricting class action lawsuits, there are now instances of death by 1,000 arbitrations. Judge William Alsup, who also handled Oracle vs. Google, is quoted: "Your law firm and all the defense law firms have tried for 30 years to keep plaintiffs out of court, and so finally someone says, ‘OK, we’ll take you to arbitration,’ and suddenly it’s not in your interest anymore. Now you’re wiggling around, trying to find some way to squirm out of your agreement. There is a lot of poetic justice here." The companies made this bed, and they don't seem to like laying in it. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/business/arbitration-overload.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/business/arbitration-over...
  - mindslight 6y ago
    Ah that sounds familiar but I must have forgotten. It looks like the arbitrators are reinventing class action lawsuits (which makes sense). Of course that doesn't do anything to fix the larger issue of the huge conflict of interest.
clouddrover 6y ago
> All Tesla vehicles can use Superchargers. The chargers should be open to all makes and models of EV. Single brand plugs and chargers is wasteful infrastructure. Tesla switched to CCS in Europe. They should switch to CCS in the US as well. The next step is to open the chargers to all EVs like the other charging networks do. You can fuel an ICE car at any fuel station so you should be able to charge an EV at any charging station. Not being able to do so makes EVs less practical than internal combustion vehicles.