3 ms·

I think Hickel’s point looks something like “Roser claims colonialism was good because it supports his argument that poverty declined, but poverty was low befor

I think Hickel’s point looks something like “Roser claims colonialism was good because it supports his argument that poverty declined, but poverty was low before colonialism, therefore it was bad” (surely I’m missing something here?) I think Roser’s response is basically that “colonialism was bad and probably led to more poverty than there otherwise would have been. Also poverty was still high before colonialism compared to today, so I don’t need to rely on any heightened colonialism-induced poverty level to say that poverty has gone down” You seem to be replying to this with “well actually colonialism was good because blah blah blah blah blah blah.” This seems to be irrelevant to everything in scope but I guess you just wanted to get it out of your system. FWIW, I think the earlier inhabitants of the former colonies you claim as successful might not have such a rosy view of the consequences of colonialism, and while eg white farmers in Zimbabwe might have preferred colonial Rhodesia sticking around, the majority of the population are probably happier that the colony didn’t become more “established,” as you put it. Hong Kong is a pretty unique case as it was tiny, important, already somewhat developed when taken, and able to avoid taking part in the suffering of the communist revolution in China.

BelenusMordred 6y ago
Why aren't non-colonised countries like Ethiopia, Nepal or Bhutan thriving then? I get it's easy to put things into a binary good/bad box and certainly easier to sing "colonialism is bad" in front of a crowd, but the world is a complex place. Hypothetically would India be in a better or worse position now if they never had the English language foisted upon them? The British colonialists tried to end centuries of rampant violent slavery on the Malayan peninsular, this made them incredibly unpopular with the Sultans and resulted in the assassination of an administrator, a war and resulting cessation of the practice. In certain cities like Melaka, slaves made up 30% of the population, were the British not to have intervened the use of slaves would have likely continued well into the 20th century. The world is rarely black and white.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  Vietnam and Thailand seem to be doing OK these days
  - jariel 6y ago
    They are doing considerably worse than those in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea. If the US had stayed in South Vietnam, they'd likely be living at the same standard of living as South Koreans, instead, they continue to live in a fairly oppressive system without rule of law, basic freedom of expression, high levels of corruption etc. Thailand would have likely benefited as well. Thailand is often cited as a 'special case' due to it's lack of direct colonization relative to the rest of the area.

BelenusMordred 6y ago

Why aren't non-colonised countries like Ethiopia, Nepal or Bhutan thriving then? I get it's easy to put things into a binary good/bad box and certainly easier to sing "colonialism is bad" in front of a crowd, but the world is a complex place. Hypothetically would India be in a better or worse position now if they never had the English language foisted upon them? The British colonialists tried to end centuries of rampant violent slavery on the Malayan peninsular, this made them incredibly unpopular with the Sultans and resulted in the assassination of an administrator, a war and resulting cessation of the practice. In certain cities like Melaka, slaves made up 30% of the population, were the British not to have intervened the use of slaves would have likely continued well into the 20th century. The world is rarely black and white.

selimthegrim 6y ago
Vietnam and Thailand seem to be doing OK these days
- jariel 6y ago
  They are doing considerably worse than those in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea. If the US had stayed in South Vietnam, they'd likely be living at the same standard of living as South Koreans, instead, they continue to live in a fairly oppressive system without rule of law, basic freedom of expression, high levels of corruption etc. Thailand would have likely benefited as well. Thailand is often cited as a 'special case' due to it's lack of direct colonization relative to the rest of the area.