2 ms·

Everything that has been done or been tried has had to pass or be written under the specter of the filibuster though. It fundamentally limits the type of option

by rtkwe 6y ago

Everything that has been done or been tried has had to pass or be written under the specter of the filibuster though. It fundamentally limits the type of options that get through. The only major change in the last decade was Obamacare which is remarkably similar to the system passed under a the Republican Governorship of Mitt Romney. Democrats have some options they'd like to do that might help but cannot because of the filibuster. Reconciliation which is the only way around the filibuster guaranteed is pretty limited in scope due to the rules around it. Whether those could pass a vote if there was no filibuster is unknown because they all get completely blocked by Republican filibuster.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> The only major change in the last decade was Obamacare which is remarkably similar to the system passed under a the Republican Governorship of Mitt Romney. Which itself was a state level implementation of a program the insurance industry and national Republicans were talking up as an alternative in the 90s when, i the wake of the failure of Clinton’s healthcare reform, it seemed there was enough residual demand for something to be done in that regard nationally that they thought they needed to bring something to the table.
tdeck 6y ago
The filibuster is a set of rules that both parties agreed to. One might well ask why Democrats in the senate agreed to this rule once again, knowing full well it would impede their ability to accomplish their publicly touted platform over the next few years.
- bluGill 6y ago
  The obvious answer is eventually they will be out of power again and will want it. In fact until a few years ago they had it for judges, but they got rid of it when Republicans filibustered. Then when Trump nominated a judge they didn't like, well they discovered the filibuster was gone by their own doing and they were powerless.
  - pasquinelli 6y ago
    that obvious answer is not a good one. when democrats got material gains for working people they controlled congress from 1933 to 1980 except for two years. getting rid of the filibuster and packing the supreme court to pass and see to fruition real material gains would make democrats the ruling party for the foreseeable future. they don't do that because that's not what they want.
    - nickff 6y ago
      You don’t get elected for doing things, you get electing for promising to do things.
  - brendoelfrendo 6y ago
    The obvious answer isn't really applicable here, though it does cross the lips of plenty of moderates. The reality is that the Democratic party is forced into being a "big tent" party of "everyone left of the Republicans," which represents a simply massive spectrum, and therefore they have less consensus than the Republican party. Take, for example, Joe Manchin, a Democrat from West Virginia who drew some ire after FiveThirtyEight found he sided with Trump's priorities 58% of the time. He's been vocal that he would never agree to eliminate the filibuster, because he's basically a Republican in all but name.
    - Naracion 6y ago
      As an international who is not as familiar with American politics (but wants to understand), why is this comment being down voted? Are the claims incorrect? Are they unsubstantiated?
      - brendoelfrendo 6y ago
        As the person who wrote it, I'm not sure; I think this one of those things that's colored by opinion as much as fact. I would like to hear someone say what they think. The bit about Manchin is fact, though. They can't change the rule without him, and he doesn't want to eliminate the filibuster. He did say that he would consider modifying it to make it more difficult, however.
- rtkwe 6y ago
  Kind of, the filibuster isn't so much in the rules as it's a consequence of other rules and (imo) a poorly designed government. The Senate was originally setup with truly unlimited debate, this is a pretty bad idea on the face of it because it allows a pretty small group to potentially completely stall the whole of the US government's law making apparatus. [0] So cloture was added which added a way to officially close debate on a bill to avoid that. It requires more coordination but still introduces an extra veto point into the government that most modern democracies don't have. It's an extremely powerful tool for the minority. That very power is a reason I think there's a few hold outs on the Democrat side that don't want to get rid of it. The senate is naturally stacked against the democrats as the parties are currently aligned so a few don't want to risk giving up that power. There's also a number who (at least claim to) believe that the unlimited debate is an important part of the Senate. Personally I think it's a relic that's getting in the way of passing the exact legislation that will make Democrats more popular (and make it easier to vote to counteract some extremely blatant voter suppression happening in red states). [0] consider 3 senators working 8 hour shifts of 8 on 16 off. That would be maintainable for a very long time.
  - dcow 6y ago
    The US govt is heavily calibrated on the side of minority political factions in order to protect minorities from “oppressive” majority rule. It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. What recent events tell me is that we’re looking to the federal government to do more than it is/was meant to do. If that’s dated so be it but I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      > It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government. > I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare. Because they're ironically forbidden by federal law. Several legislators in CA would love to bring a statewide single-payer healthcare bill forward, but funding it would require using federal Medicare dollars in ways that require permission from the US Congress. Guess how likely that'll be forthcoming?
IncRnd 6y ago
> Democrats have some options they'd like to do that might help but cannot because of the filibuster. Repetitively, issues are raised and forgotten by politicians, and never actually solved by the party in power. For various reasons, many people have come to believe propaganda about the filibuster. For example, Sen. Warren and others say that the filibuster is racist and a relic of the past, yet Democrats (including Warren) filibustered the Republican's $500 billion coronavirus relief bill in September of last year. They were really saving their votes to send you money after the election. They also filibustered a Republican police-reform bill last year. While the parties do not necessarily hold the same platforms as each other, many of the Senators literally went to school in order to become politicians. They are not your friends. They are prevaricating in order to remain in power and make money. Not all - but many of them. Warren has some redeeming qualities, but facts are facts. She has been a Senator since 2013 and has had her own share of "clarified statements". Definition: A wedge issue is a divisive political issue, especially one that is raised by a candidate for public office in hopes of attracting or alienating an opponent's supporters. These wedge issues are used to keep people's emotions going, so as to vote for one party and hate the other. Then, the issues are not solved a the times they could. There is a reason for the existence of an actual term, wedge issue, for the concept - because it constantly happens.

by rtkwe 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> The only major change in the last decade was Obamacare which is remarkably similar to the system passed under a the Republican Governorship of Mitt Romney. Which itself was a state level implementation of a program the insurance industry and national Republicans were talking up as an alternative in the 90s when, i the wake of the failure of Clinton’s healthcare reform, it seemed there was enough residual demand for something to be done in that regard nationally that they thought they needed to bring something to the table.

tdeck 6y ago

The filibuster is a set of rules that both parties agreed to. One might well ask why Democrats in the senate agreed to this rule once again, knowing full well it would impede their ability to accomplish their publicly touted platform over the next few years.

bluGill 6y ago
The obvious answer is eventually they will be out of power again and will want it. In fact until a few years ago they had it for judges, but they got rid of it when Republicans filibustered. Then when Trump nominated a judge they didn't like, well they discovered the filibuster was gone by their own doing and they were powerless.
- pasquinelli 6y ago
  that obvious answer is not a good one. when democrats got material gains for working people they controlled congress from 1933 to 1980 except for two years. getting rid of the filibuster and packing the supreme court to pass and see to fruition real material gains would make democrats the ruling party for the foreseeable future. they don't do that because that's not what they want.
  - nickff 6y ago
    You don’t get elected for doing things, you get electing for promising to do things.
- brendoelfrendo 6y ago
  The obvious answer isn't really applicable here, though it does cross the lips of plenty of moderates. The reality is that the Democratic party is forced into being a "big tent" party of "everyone left of the Republicans," which represents a simply massive spectrum, and therefore they have less consensus than the Republican party. Take, for example, Joe Manchin, a Democrat from West Virginia who drew some ire after FiveThirtyEight found he sided with Trump's priorities 58% of the time. He's been vocal that he would never agree to eliminate the filibuster, because he's basically a Republican in all but name.
  - Naracion 6y ago
    As an international who is not as familiar with American politics (but wants to understand), why is this comment being down voted? Are the claims incorrect? Are they unsubstantiated?
    - brendoelfrendo 6y ago
      As the person who wrote it, I'm not sure; I think this one of those things that's colored by opinion as much as fact. I would like to hear someone say what they think. The bit about Manchin is fact, though. They can't change the rule without him, and he doesn't want to eliminate the filibuster. He did say that he would consider modifying it to make it more difficult, however.
rtkwe 6y ago
Kind of, the filibuster isn't so much in the rules as it's a consequence of other rules and (imo) a poorly designed government. The Senate was originally setup with truly unlimited debate, this is a pretty bad idea on the face of it because it allows a pretty small group to potentially completely stall the whole of the US government's law making apparatus. [0] So cloture was added which added a way to officially close debate on a bill to avoid that. It requires more coordination but still introduces an extra veto point into the government that most modern democracies don't have. It's an extremely powerful tool for the minority. That very power is a reason I think there's a few hold outs on the Democrat side that don't want to get rid of it. The senate is naturally stacked against the democrats as the parties are currently aligned so a few don't want to risk giving up that power. There's also a number who (at least claim to) believe that the unlimited debate is an important part of the Senate. Personally I think it's a relic that's getting in the way of passing the exact legislation that will make Democrats more popular (and make it easier to vote to counteract some extremely blatant voter suppression happening in red states). [0] consider 3 senators working 8 hour shifts of 8 on 16 off. That would be maintainable for a very long time.
- dcow 6y ago
  The US govt is heavily calibrated on the side of minority political factions in order to protect minorities from “oppressive” majority rule. It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. What recent events tell me is that we’re looking to the federal government to do more than it is/was meant to do. If that’s dated so be it but I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    > It’s annoying when it gets in the way of the majority but also fundamental to how the US operates. I think a government where the majority party can't actually implement any kind of agenda is a fundamentally broken government. > I dont understand why states have to wait around for the federal government to solve healthcare. Because they're ironically forbidden by federal law. Several legislators in CA would love to bring a statewide single-payer healthcare bill forward, but funding it would require using federal Medicare dollars in ways that require permission from the US Congress. Guess how likely that'll be forthcoming?

IncRnd 6y ago

> Democrats have some options they'd like to do that might help but cannot because of the filibuster. Repetitively, issues are raised and forgotten by politicians, and never actually solved by the party in power. For various reasons, many people have come to believe propaganda about the filibuster. For example, Sen. Warren and others say that the filibuster is racist and a relic of the past, yet Democrats (including Warren) filibustered the Republican's $500 billion coronavirus relief bill in September of last year. They were really saving their votes to send you money after the election. They also filibustered a Republican police-reform bill last year. While the parties do not necessarily hold the same platforms as each other, many of the Senators literally went to school in order to become politicians. They are not your friends. They are prevaricating in order to remain in power and make money. Not all - but many of them. Warren has some redeeming qualities, but facts are facts. She has been a Senator since 2013 and has had her own share of "clarified statements". Definition: A wedge issue is a divisive political issue, especially one that is raised by a candidate for public office in hopes of attracting or alienating an opponent's supporters. These wedge issues are used to keep people's emotions going, so as to vote for one party and hate the other. Then, the issues are not solved a the times they could. There is a reason for the existence of an actual term, wedge issue, for the concept - because it constantly happens.