4 ms·

Whenever this comes up, I always ask, even though I can anticipate the answer: has anyone cloned Lotus Improv, either literally or ideologically? The closest t

by gecko 6y ago

Whenever this comes up, I always ask, even though I can anticipate the answer: has anyone cloned Lotus Improv, either literally or ideologically? The closest thing I've used recently that was close was probably Airtable, but that's more an iterative improvement on FileMaker/Access, with a web focus, than really a competitor to Improv. There also used to be a Java desktop app, but it wasn't targeted for casual desktop use, and I've long since forgotten its name.

guessbest 6y ago
Flexisheet was created to be a clone of Improv for Gnustep, but it was abandoned long ago. You could compiled the source. https://flexisheet-orphans.blogspot.com/2006/10/circa-2002-leuker-stefan-shared-beta.html https://flexisheet-orphans.blogspot.com/2006/10/circa-2002-l... Sourcecode : https://github.com/gnustep/gap/tree/master/user-apps/FlexiSheet https://github.com/gnustep/gap/tree/master/user-apps/FlexiSh... Review of alternatives: https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=546563 https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=546563
watersb 6y ago
Odessa Helix was really good, a combination spreadsheet and database, and the extensive the scripting language was pretty much straight HyperTalk (AppleScript).
- zu03776 6y ago
  Odesta Helix and Double Helix were graphical programming databases. The early versions for the Macintosh were... interesting to design databases with. QSA Toolworks continues to sell versions of Helix today. https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ Here is a screenshot of the original design interface. Retro-future! https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ee/marketing/museum/images/1984/MBGListing.jpg https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ee/marketing/museum/images/1984... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helix_(database) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helix_(database)
  - watersb 6y ago
    Thanks! I was quite wrong in my previous comment; a quick scan of The Macintosh Garden reminds me I was programming in Wingz, a really nice macro host. https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/wingz https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/wingz
Avshalom 6y ago
How "cloned" do you want? as far as I know Quantrix Modeler https://quantrix.com/products/quantrix-modeler/ https://quantrix.com/products/quantrix-modeler/ started as a clone and has continued on with the same idea, though by now I assume it's accreted enough bells and whistles to be just barely recognizable. ETA: also it's 2.5 grand a seat so...
- gecko 6y ago
  Aha! Yeah, that's the Java GUI client I mentioned. But yes, $2500 a seat is a bit more than I would like to pay for my use case. :) (I'm not saying it's Not Worth That, but I definitely would not get back my investment for what I use spreadsheets for.)
  - zokier 6y ago
    > $2500 a seat is a bit more than I would like to pay for my use case. This is big part of why the application market place consolidated and dried up. I peeked at the PC mag word processor roundup that was posted in this thread, and one thing that struck my eye was that Word and WP cost like $450-$495 in 80s dollars, which is about $1000 in todays dollars. Its pretty hard to imagine anyone paying $1k for a word processor alone these days. And in that scale $2.5k for a spreadsheet doesn't seem all that preposterous. Also if the high-end software cost that much, it would leave more room in the lower end for smaller software to compete.
    - the_only_law 5y ago
      I’m always completed shocked when I come across software still being sold this way, especially if it’s kinda niche or something not really used anymore. How are these business staying afloat?
chrisdone 6y ago
I’m working on https://inflex.io/ https://inflex.io/ which can achieve the data / logic separation of Improv, by putting functions in cells. But Improv isn’t an inspiration. Inflex is certainly closer to it than Airtable though.
mpweiher 5y ago
Improv was protected by patents, which was a complicating factor. That said, there were a bunch of implementations (already mentioned), and the capability was added to Excel and other spreadsheets.

by gecko 6y ago

guessbest 6y ago

Flexisheet was created to be a clone of Improv for Gnustep, but it was abandoned long ago. You could compiled the source. https://flexisheet-orphans.blogspot.com/2006/10/circa-2002-leuker-stefan-shared-beta.html https://flexisheet-orphans.blogspot.com/2006/10/circa-2002-l... Sourcecode : https://github.com/gnustep/gap/tree/master/user-apps/FlexiSheet https://github.com/gnustep/gap/tree/master/user-apps/FlexiSh... Review of alternatives: https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=546563 https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=546563

watersb 6y ago

Odessa Helix was really good, a combination spreadsheet and database, and the extensive the scripting language was pretty much straight HyperTalk (AppleScript).

zu03776 6y ago
Odesta Helix and Double Helix were graphical programming databases. The early versions for the Macintosh were... interesting to design databases with. QSA Toolworks continues to sell versions of Helix today. https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ Here is a screenshot of the original design interface. Retro-future! https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ee/marketing/museum/images/1984/MBGListing.jpg https://www.qsatoolworks.com/ee/marketing/museum/images/1984... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helix_(database) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helix_(database)
- watersb 6y ago
  Thanks! I was quite wrong in my previous comment; a quick scan of The Macintosh Garden reminds me I was programming in Wingz, a really nice macro host. https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/wingz https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/wingz

Avshalom 6y ago

How "cloned" do you want? as far as I know Quantrix Modeler https://quantrix.com/products/quantrix-modeler/ https://quantrix.com/products/quantrix-modeler/ started as a clone and has continued on with the same idea, though by now I assume it's accreted enough bells and whistles to be just barely recognizable. ETA: also it's 2.5 grand a seat so...

gecko 6y ago
Aha! Yeah, that's the Java GUI client I mentioned. But yes, $2500 a seat is a bit more than I would like to pay for my use case. :) (I'm not saying it's Not Worth That, but I definitely would not get back my investment for what I use spreadsheets for.)
- zokier 6y ago
  > $2500 a seat is a bit more than I would like to pay for my use case. This is big part of why the application market place consolidated and dried up. I peeked at the PC mag word processor roundup that was posted in this thread, and one thing that struck my eye was that Word and WP cost like $450-$495 in 80s dollars, which is about $1000 in todays dollars. Its pretty hard to imagine anyone paying $1k for a word processor alone these days. And in that scale $2.5k for a spreadsheet doesn't seem all that preposterous. Also if the high-end software cost that much, it would leave more room in the lower end for smaller software to compete.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    I’m always completed shocked when I come across software still being sold this way, especially if it’s kinda niche or something not really used anymore. How are these business staying afloat?

chrisdone 6y ago

I’m working on https://inflex.io/ https://inflex.io/ which can achieve the data / logic separation of Improv, by putting functions in cells. But Improv isn’t an inspiration. Inflex is certainly closer to it than Airtable though.

mpweiher 5y ago

Improv was protected by patents, which was a complicating factor. That said, there were a bunch of implementations (already mentioned), and the capability was added to Excel and other spreadsheets.