4 ms·

Elsewhere you say that kids don't need to learn those things until age 6, so parents don't need to worry about prioritizing it. Here, the concern is that if th

by mlyle 6y ago

Elsewhere you say that kids don't need to learn those things until age 6, so parents don't need to worry about prioritizing it. Here, the concern is that if the kids learn them around age 6, their trajectory could be permanently altered-- never having a chance to catch up even if capable-- because of the system's tracking of learners.

WalterBright 6y ago
> their trajectory could be permanently altered I simply don't buy that. The reason is simple - elementary school teaches kids at such a glacial pace there is no problem for kids catching up who started a bit late. For example, I missed the first half of 4th grade. The teacher proposed that I be held back a grade because of all that I missed. My mom put her foot down and said no way. The teacher was skeptical, but within a few days it was abundantly clear that I hadn't missed anything at all. The 4th grade class simply had not perceptibly advanced in 3 months. P.S. when going through my dad's papers after he passed a few years ago, I ran across report cards from before first grade. They all thought I was "slow". People should just lighten up about academic performance before age 6. It doesn't mean anything for the vast majority of kids. I wouldn't even worry about it until 3rd grade.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Indeed. My 4th grader is in remote public schooling this year. He crushes the day's work in 30-45 minutes; if anything it's highlighting just how terribly inefficient the scholastics part of elementary school is. (It's also not the primary purpose of K-5, but to the extent that a sliver of it is present, it is indeed glacially slow.)
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Elementary school is pretty much 95% playtime. I had a good time playing with my friends at school. College was a total shock, I had to work hard.
- mlyle 6y ago
  OK, so say that in the argument above, because I think you were misunderstanding the other party. I think it varies a lot by school system. There are places-- mostly lower income, disadvantaged places-- where joining a higher track again is very hard. > The teacher proposed that I be held back a grade because of all that I missed. My mom put her foot down and said no way. This kind of advocacy is often missing, too. > The 4th grade class simply had not perceptibly advanced in 3 months. Good curriculum has looping, where you hit the same kind of topic from different angles separated in time. I'm teaching bright kids in middle school, and I'm finding that you need to hit something about 3 times before even the bright kids will retain and be able to minimally apply it. (With the exception that every now and then something will be interesting enough that a few students will go and figure out everything about it on their own). Looping means that if kids miss a bit it'll generally be OK (there won't be huge perceptible gaps in knowledge/ability).
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    I attended 3 different elementary schools, all over the place. All the same. They were still looping back teaching the times tables in 7th grade.
    - mlyle 6y ago
      That's absolutely crazy. The school I teach at (I teach middle school, but there's an associated high school and elementary) has some kids doing times tables early in 1st or 2nd grade, but after 3rd grade it is done. By 7th grade, everyone is in pre-algebra or algebra, and we're looping back over properties of operations and exponent rules, even though everyone, especially in algebra, should know them already. (uh... except for 11x12 and 7x8, which are for some mystical reason impossible for some to remember). The public school I was in-- algebra I was not offered in 7th grade, but we were definitely not doing times tables in pre-algebra in 7th.
      - gnicholas 6y ago
        > (uh... except for 11x12 and 7x8, which are for some mystical reason impossible for some to remember). My kid had a hard time with 7x8 until discovering the mnemonic that 56 = 7x8 (5, 6, 7, 8). As for the 11 times tables, you can go all the way up to 18 if you know these two rules: one-digit number x 11 is the one digit written twice (e.g. 6x11 = 66) two-digit number x 11 is the two-digit number written again, but with the sum of the two digits written in between the original two digits (e.g. 11x12 = 132) There is a more complicated rule for multiplying 11 by larger numbers, but most people don't know their 11 times tables past 10 or so anyway.

by mlyle 6y ago

WalterBright 6y ago

> their trajectory could be permanently altered I simply don't buy that. The reason is simple - elementary school teaches kids at such a glacial pace there is no problem for kids catching up who started a bit late. For example, I missed the first half of 4th grade. The teacher proposed that I be held back a grade because of all that I missed. My mom put her foot down and said no way. The teacher was skeptical, but within a few days it was abundantly clear that I hadn't missed anything at all. The 4th grade class simply had not perceptibly advanced in 3 months. P.S. when going through my dad's papers after he passed a few years ago, I ran across report cards from before first grade. They all thought I was "slow". People should just lighten up about academic performance before age 6. It doesn't mean anything for the vast majority of kids. I wouldn't even worry about it until 3rd grade.

sokoloff 6y ago
Indeed. My 4th grader is in remote public schooling this year. He crushes the day's work in 30-45 minutes; if anything it's highlighting just how terribly inefficient the scholastics part of elementary school is. (It's also not the primary purpose of K-5, but to the extent that a sliver of it is present, it is indeed glacially slow.)
- WalterBright 6y ago
  Elementary school is pretty much 95% playtime. I had a good time playing with my friends at school. College was a total shock, I had to work hard.
mlyle 6y ago
OK, so say that in the argument above, because I think you were misunderstanding the other party. I think it varies a lot by school system. There are places-- mostly lower income, disadvantaged places-- where joining a higher track again is very hard. > The teacher proposed that I be held back a grade because of all that I missed. My mom put her foot down and said no way. This kind of advocacy is often missing, too. > The 4th grade class simply had not perceptibly advanced in 3 months. Good curriculum has looping, where you hit the same kind of topic from different angles separated in time. I'm teaching bright kids in middle school, and I'm finding that you need to hit something about 3 times before even the bright kids will retain and be able to minimally apply it. (With the exception that every now and then something will be interesting enough that a few students will go and figure out everything about it on their own). Looping means that if kids miss a bit it'll generally be OK (there won't be huge perceptible gaps in knowledge/ability).
- WalterBright 6y ago
  I attended 3 different elementary schools, all over the place. All the same. They were still looping back teaching the times tables in 7th grade.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    That's absolutely crazy. The school I teach at (I teach middle school, but there's an associated high school and elementary) has some kids doing times tables early in 1st or 2nd grade, but after 3rd grade it is done. By 7th grade, everyone is in pre-algebra or algebra, and we're looping back over properties of operations and exponent rules, even though everyone, especially in algebra, should know them already. (uh... except for 11x12 and 7x8, which are for some mystical reason impossible for some to remember). The public school I was in-- algebra I was not offered in 7th grade, but we were definitely not doing times tables in pre-algebra in 7th.
    - gnicholas 6y ago
      > (uh... except for 11x12 and 7x8, which are for some mystical reason impossible for some to remember). My kid had a hard time with 7x8 until discovering the mnemonic that 56 = 7x8 (5, 6, 7, 8). As for the 11 times tables, you can go all the way up to 18 if you know these two rules: one-digit number x 11 is the one digit written twice (e.g. 6x11 = 66) two-digit number x 11 is the two-digit number written again, but with the sum of the two digits written in between the original two digits (e.g. 11x12 = 132) There is a more complicated rule for multiplying 11 by larger numbers, but most people don't know their 11 times tables past 10 or so anyway.