6 ms·

I went to a Waldorf school for the equivalent of elementary and middle school, which gives me a different perspective on this. Waldorf kindergartens don't have

I went to a Waldorf school for the equivalent of elementary and middle school, which gives me a different perspective on this. Waldorf kindergartens don't have anything which resembles standard Prussian pedagogy. No desks, no assignments, none of that, and you aren't expected to read or write. It's mostly freeform play, we also learned to bake bread. Everyone turned out fine. Rudolph Steiner has some, let's say idiosyncratic, theories of child development, but I think his basic thesis that children don't need to learn reading, writing, and maths, before their brains are ready for that information, is sound. Kindergarten won't be to early for some children, but it will be too early for many. The ones it isn't too early for are just going to learn those things. These kids are going to be fine, or more accurately, the damage will be from living through the global trauma, not from ordinary kindergarten being interrupted. I feel real compassion for the kids whose parents are forcing them to sit through Zoom school, though. To me it's clear this is the worst of the available options.

watwut 6y ago
Desks dont imply Prussian pedagogy. No contemporary school system is Prussian, it evolved a lot. If I want to be snarky, it apparently does not give feel for how social history happens either.
cptskippy 6y ago
> Waldorf kindergartens don't have anything which resembles standard Prussian pedagogy. No desks, no assignments, none of that, and you aren't expected to read or write. It's mostly freeform play, we also learned to bake bread. Your Waldorf experience was my Kindergarten experience in a US public school in the 80s. I still have the cookbook we made and remember fondly making all the recipes in class. Marigolds are still one of my favorite flowers because we planted them in milk cartons to bring home on Mother's day. I also remember looking up the teacher's skirt because we all sat on a rug in the middle of class rather than desks.
- donw 6y ago
  I recall a lot of coloring, playing outside on a dedicated playground for kindergarteners, and frozen green grapes at snacktime during the summer. Also scheduled naps which I never took. We had tables for coloring and crafts, but not desks, and sat around on the ground whenever the teacher would tell us a story. There was also this hippy-ish woman who literally drove up in a VW microbus -- crazy that I remember that -- and who taught us a bit about music. Singing and clapping along to syllables are the bits that come to mind. One other thing is that there were no fences around the school. It was a good way to grow up, and I'm going to do my best to ensure my kids get at least some of this.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    That is how I remember kindergarten here in Denmark as well. Lots of playtime, songs, puppet theatre, cooking/baking, board games, learning to tie your shoelaces, that sort of thing. We've also had forest kindergartens for some years now, and if the missus and I ever have kids, they will 100% be attending one of those.
summm 6y ago
Steiner had all sorts of insane theories about children's development, specifically that they are inhabited by specific spirits according to a 7 year age progression. I'd not consider his esoteric teachings as any valid contribution.
- centimeter 6y ago
  Ideas don't need to be correct to be adaptive.
tmaly 6y ago
The main benefit school provides at age 5 is socialization. If everything is on zoom, I don’t see the point. I agree with you, the kids will be fine.
gumby 6y ago
> Rudolph Steiner has some, let's say idiosyncratic, theories of child development, but I think his basic thesis that children don't need to learn reading, writing, and maths, before their brains are ready for that information, is sound. FWIW that belief is considered basic developmental science in Germany and informs the early education system there (at least). Maria Montessori was inspired by his work and her system seems for whatever reason to be more accepted in the US. I was on the school board of a German language school in the US and some of the American parents were frustrated at their kids not being drilled from age 4 or 5 (typically they had a German-speaking spouse who didn't understand that Gadgrind expectation). All the kids, to the best of my knowledge, came out fine but they all of course had parents who could afford (or whose companies could afford) to pay for private schooling so it's the worst of anecdote vs data. Also all the teachers had masters' degrees, which is unusual in the US but I don't know if that was the result of the German government's selection or was par for the course.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  > FWIW that belief is considered basic developmental science in Germany and informs the early education system there (at least). I suspect the GP was talking more about things like Steiner's belief that a child shouldn't exit kindergarten until they lose a baby tooth. Or that any illness a child develops was something their souls chose before birth, and therefore things like vaccination deny the soul. Or how different races came from places like Atlantis or Lemuria... Anthroposophy is a whole thing. Play and social learning is why we enrolled our kid in early childhood with Waldorf, but Anthroposophy is why we got out.
- orbifold 6y ago
  Yes in Germany you need a master of education to be allowed to teach even elementary school. Teachers are paid pretty well overall and the equivalent of Highschool teachers have done 5 years of university study.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
I went to a Waldorf kindergarten which I didn't mind. My mother hated it; they told her it was not appropriate that I was already able to read.
- souprock 6y ago
  My mother was told that she should not use so many big words around me. Evidently, my vocabulary was a problem for the one-size-fits-all classroom.
djrogers 6y ago
I went to public school in Canada, and my wife did the same in the US. Neither of us had a kindergarten experience with desks and assignments - it was much like what you describe your experience as. Perhaps your fancy kindergarten wasn’t as different from public school as you thought?
- Spooky23 6y ago
  If you go to a suburban district, the psycho parents demand reading in kindergarten... one parent in my sons class expected her kid to read Harry Potter in grade 1. I went to a NYC public school in the 80s. We didn’t even start phonics until grade 1.
  - maxwelljoslyn 6y ago
    > One parent in my sons class expected her kid to read Harry Potter in grade 1. Some first-graders are capable of that -- but yes, certainly not a reasonable baseline expectation for that age.
    - tetromino_ 6y ago
      When I was 6 years old, I started reading my family's collection of Jules Verne in Russian translation (I chose the books whose covers looked interesting). I was a reasonably smart kid, but certainly not a genius, not exceptionally talented. If you find it unreasonable to expect a smart first grader to be able to read Harry Potter, then my reaction is that either written English is unexpectedly much more difficult to learn for a child compared to written Russian, or American parents and teachers are doing an unexpectedly bad job of teaching it.
      - maxwelljoslyn 6y ago
        I don't find it unreasonable for a smart first grader, or even kindergartner. I'm unsure whether it is doable for a typical one. I based my earlier response on what I knew from others as children. But, seeing your response and those of others in this thread, perhaps I was mistaken. Then again: >American parents and teachers are doing an unexpectedly bad job of teaching it. I can't speak for American parents but American teachers aren't so good in general.
IkmoIkmo 6y ago
I mean as far as I know this is the norm in the Netherlands. I didn't start reading/writing until age 6-7. Before that it was freeform play with a bunch of implicit learning, I recall a lot of games, songs, painting etc.
- blippage 6y ago
  My thinking on the matter is: it's kindergarten, play with the damn playdough. I'm suspicious that we in the West have become obsessed with formalism. What can be measured must be measured. Do kindergartens really need a "curriculum", like I've heard in the US. I can't help but think we're missing the wood for the trees here. As with everything in life, quantity is not the same as quality. Are we providing kids with a good education, or are we treating education as some kind of manufacturing process with a quota system?
  - what-the-grump 6y ago
    It's made to extract money. If you frame it in that context, text books, tests owned by 3rd party companies, smart boards with overpriced contracts, etc. Becomes pretty clear that no one gives a hoot about your child and education, maybe the super frustrated teacher who still doesn't realize this...
WillPostForFood 6y ago
Everyone turned out fine. Did they? We have no data. Maybe they did better, maybe they did worse, maybe it makes no difference and everyone turns out fine. But it behooves us to collect a little more data before we toss out the current system. The only hard data I have on Waldorf schools in my area is that they have the lowest percentage of vaccinated kids: <50% vs >90% for public schools. That makes it a hard no for me, and should be cause skepticism in the Waldorf system.
eru 6y ago
Growing up in the actual territory of former Prussia, our Kindergarten didn't have any desks nor assignments either.
centimeter 6y ago
How dare you! We need state-run pre-school to get those kids sitting at desks even earlier!
blagie 6y ago
My local school requires kids to be on Zoom, or it escalates to the DCFS, who can take your kids away, unless you file and get approved homeschooling paperwork. Can't force us to keep cameras and microphones on, though. School doesn't care. It can check attendance, so it's good with the state.

watwut 6y ago

Desks dont imply Prussian pedagogy. No contemporary school system is Prussian, it evolved a lot. If I want to be snarky, it apparently does not give feel for how social history happens either.

cptskippy 6y ago

> Waldorf kindergartens don't have anything which resembles standard Prussian pedagogy. No desks, no assignments, none of that, and you aren't expected to read or write. It's mostly freeform play, we also learned to bake bread. Your Waldorf experience was my Kindergarten experience in a US public school in the 80s. I still have the cookbook we made and remember fondly making all the recipes in class. Marigolds are still one of my favorite flowers because we planted them in milk cartons to bring home on Mother's day. I also remember looking up the teacher's skirt because we all sat on a rug in the middle of class rather than desks.

donw 6y ago
I recall a lot of coloring, playing outside on a dedicated playground for kindergarteners, and frozen green grapes at snacktime during the summer. Also scheduled naps which I never took. We had tables for coloring and crafts, but not desks, and sat around on the ground whenever the teacher would tell us a story. There was also this hippy-ish woman who literally drove up in a VW microbus -- crazy that I remember that -- and who taught us a bit about music. Singing and clapping along to syllables are the bits that come to mind. One other thing is that there were no fences around the school. It was a good way to grow up, and I'm going to do my best to ensure my kids get at least some of this.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  That is how I remember kindergarten here in Denmark as well. Lots of playtime, songs, puppet theatre, cooking/baking, board games, learning to tie your shoelaces, that sort of thing. We've also had forest kindergartens for some years now, and if the missus and I ever have kids, they will 100% be attending one of those.

summm 6y ago

Steiner had all sorts of insane theories about children's development, specifically that they are inhabited by specific spirits according to a 7 year age progression. I'd not consider his esoteric teachings as any valid contribution.

centimeter 6y ago
Ideas don't need to be correct to be adaptive.

tmaly 6y ago

The main benefit school provides at age 5 is socialization. If everything is on zoom, I don’t see the point. I agree with you, the kids will be fine.

gumby 6y ago

> Rudolph Steiner has some, let's say idiosyncratic, theories of child development, but I think his basic thesis that children don't need to learn reading, writing, and maths, before their brains are ready for that information, is sound. FWIW that belief is considered basic developmental science in Germany and informs the early education system there (at least). Maria Montessori was inspired by his work and her system seems for whatever reason to be more accepted in the US. I was on the school board of a German language school in the US and some of the American parents were frustrated at their kids not being drilled from age 4 or 5 (typically they had a German-speaking spouse who didn't understand that Gadgrind expectation). All the kids, to the best of my knowledge, came out fine but they all of course had parents who could afford (or whose companies could afford) to pay for private schooling so it's the worst of anecdote vs data. Also all the teachers had masters' degrees, which is unusual in the US but I don't know if that was the result of the German government's selection or was par for the course.

Pfhreak 6y ago
> FWIW that belief is considered basic developmental science in Germany and informs the early education system there (at least). I suspect the GP was talking more about things like Steiner's belief that a child shouldn't exit kindergarten until they lose a baby tooth. Or that any illness a child develops was something their souls chose before birth, and therefore things like vaccination deny the soul. Or how different races came from places like Atlantis or Lemuria... Anthroposophy is a whole thing. Play and social learning is why we enrolled our kid in early childhood with Waldorf, but Anthroposophy is why we got out.
orbifold 6y ago
Yes in Germany you need a master of education to be allowed to teach even elementary school. Teachers are paid pretty well overall and the equivalent of Highschool teachers have done 5 years of university study.

thaumasiotes 6y ago

I went to a Waldorf kindergarten which I didn't mind. My mother hated it; they told her it was not appropriate that I was already able to read.

souprock 6y ago
My mother was told that she should not use so many big words around me. Evidently, my vocabulary was a problem for the one-size-fits-all classroom.

djrogers 6y ago

I went to public school in Canada, and my wife did the same in the US. Neither of us had a kindergarten experience with desks and assignments - it was much like what you describe your experience as. Perhaps your fancy kindergarten wasn’t as different from public school as you thought?

Spooky23 6y ago
If you go to a suburban district, the psycho parents demand reading in kindergarten... one parent in my sons class expected her kid to read Harry Potter in grade 1. I went to a NYC public school in the 80s. We didn’t even start phonics until grade 1.
- maxwelljoslyn 6y ago
  > One parent in my sons class expected her kid to read Harry Potter in grade 1. Some first-graders are capable of that -- but yes, certainly not a reasonable baseline expectation for that age.
  - tetromino_ 6y ago
    When I was 6 years old, I started reading my family's collection of Jules Verne in Russian translation (I chose the books whose covers looked interesting). I was a reasonably smart kid, but certainly not a genius, not exceptionally talented. If you find it unreasonable to expect a smart first grader to be able to read Harry Potter, then my reaction is that either written English is unexpectedly much more difficult to learn for a child compared to written Russian, or American parents and teachers are doing an unexpectedly bad job of teaching it.
    - maxwelljoslyn 6y ago
      I don't find it unreasonable for a smart first grader, or even kindergartner. I'm unsure whether it is doable for a typical one. I based my earlier response on what I knew from others as children. But, seeing your response and those of others in this thread, perhaps I was mistaken. Then again: >American parents and teachers are doing an unexpectedly bad job of teaching it. I can't speak for American parents but American teachers aren't so good in general.

IkmoIkmo 6y ago

I mean as far as I know this is the norm in the Netherlands. I didn't start reading/writing until age 6-7. Before that it was freeform play with a bunch of implicit learning, I recall a lot of games, songs, painting etc.

blippage 6y ago
My thinking on the matter is: it's kindergarten, play with the damn playdough. I'm suspicious that we in the West have become obsessed with formalism. What can be measured must be measured. Do kindergartens really need a "curriculum", like I've heard in the US. I can't help but think we're missing the wood for the trees here. As with everything in life, quantity is not the same as quality. Are we providing kids with a good education, or are we treating education as some kind of manufacturing process with a quota system?
- what-the-grump 6y ago
  It's made to extract money. If you frame it in that context, text books, tests owned by 3rd party companies, smart boards with overpriced contracts, etc. Becomes pretty clear that no one gives a hoot about your child and education, maybe the super frustrated teacher who still doesn't realize this...

WillPostForFood 6y ago

Everyone turned out fine. Did they? We have no data. Maybe they did better, maybe they did worse, maybe it makes no difference and everyone turns out fine. But it behooves us to collect a little more data before we toss out the current system. The only hard data I have on Waldorf schools in my area is that they have the lowest percentage of vaccinated kids: <50% vs >90% for public schools. That makes it a hard no for me, and should be cause skepticism in the Waldorf system.

eru 6y ago

Growing up in the actual territory of former Prussia, our Kindergarten didn't have any desks nor assignments either.

centimeter 6y ago

How dare you! We need state-run pre-school to get those kids sitting at desks even earlier!

blagie 6y ago

My local school requires kids to be on Zoom, or it escalates to the DCFS, who can take your kids away, unless you file and get approved homeschooling paperwork. Can't force us to keep cameras and microphones on, though. School doesn't care. It can check attendance, so it's good with the state.