5 ms·

>A 10 bpm drop then rise correlated with moving into and out of the apartment is pretty strong evidence of something. Sure. 'Something'. The kind of account t

>A 10 bpm drop then rise correlated with moving into and out of the apartment is pretty strong evidence of something. Sure. 'Something'. The kind of account this person provided is reminiscent of personal testimonials of individuals who live close to cellular towers. And so far, it is only her account. How do you know she's a credible, objective observer? How do you know she isn't experiencing psychosomatic symptoms? And now she's fixating on 500 gallons of something or other because of some passing reference in a report...Maybe there is something buried in there, so what? Who says that has anything to do with anything? Also, this line struck me: "it’s an outbreak of new housing developments on toxic land and water with laissez-faire oversight". San Francisco and 'laissez-faire' don't really go together. You know, the city that will deny development license if the proposed building will cast an overly large shadow over a playground. Come on. Is there something here? Who the heck knows, anything is possible. The fact that so many just want to take her word for it without an ounce of skepticism is a little disappointing.

GavinMcG 6y ago
1) It's not in San Francisco. 2) The development was explicitly expedited with permission of the city. 3) She actually collected data on both tVOCs and her physical symptoms. There's absolutely room for skepticism, but dismissing it out of hand by equating it to cell-tower crazies is ridiculous.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >There's absolutely room for skepticism I'll bite. How would that look like in your opinion? In other words, to which part of her story would you apply this skepticism? >The development was explicitly expedited with permission of the city. What does that have to do with anything?!!? This is a complete non-sequitur? You're throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks. >but dismissing it out of hand by equating it to cell-tower crazies is ridiculous Why? People who believe they are harmed by cellular towers present very real symptoms. They are sincere. How do you you know her symptoms aren't psychosomatic?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - GavinMcG 6y ago
    It has to do with your comment that the city would "deny development license if the proposed building will cast an overly large shadow over a playground." That's clearly not the case, here: they expedited development, rather than denying it. I said there's room for skepticism because we don't know that it's not psychosomatic. But: she gathered environmental data, and reports completed prior to her moving there had already concluded that "VOCs were above residential limits and, in some cases, even above vapor intrusion risk levels." The developer had made plans for advanced vapor mitigation. One of the reasons the area was a Superfund site in the first place was due to VOCs. In other words, there are a number of external reasons to think this is plausible.
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      > said there's room for skepticism because we don't know that it's not psychosomatic. Actually. We don't know anything. Or rather, we only know what she chose to present, already colored to match her conclusion. How do you know some pertinent information isn't missing from her account? >But: she gathered environmental data, and reports completed prior to her moving there had already concluded that "VOCs were above residential limits So what? Let's say VOCs are above residential limits (and I'm not sure about that given that untrained people using consumer sensors are liable to get a fair share of false results or improperly interpreted results) ... BUT OK ... how does she (and you) know that this is what is causing her symptoms? > In other words, there are a number of external reasons to think this is plausible. I wouldn't go that far. All we can really say is that she is experiencing symptoms. Those symptoms could be a result of anything (or nothing). Nothing she says passes the smell test because she's engaging in very typical conspiracy theory thinking. She decided that the cause of her symptoms is living in an apartment built on reclaimed land for very flimsy reasons. And then she went around cherry picking evidence to support that conclusion. I mean, she wrote a message to her apartment management company that stated: "The chemicals are still pouring out full blast" ... are they really? The management company sent an inspector to test for chemical and gas leaks ... and nothing. She hired her own consultant to perform the tests, and that person found nothing... and on and on and on. She sounds EXACTLY like the people who are convinced cell towers are poisoning them. Every piece of countervailing is ignored by her ... just like a conspiracy theorist. She strikes me as someone who spiraled into this rabbit hole and got absolutely convinced this one thing (out of infinite number of possible things) is causing her symptoms. Needless to say, I'm skeptical.
- azinman2 6y ago
  VOC sensors are a kind of catch all, and consumer brands often have sensors that aren’t not of the highest quality. Somethings are more toxic than others, but you won’t get any useful breakdown from them. These nighttime spikes and variability over the day are consistent with my own use of these machines, but I do not suffer anything like what she describes.
- fnord77 6y ago
  my VOC sensor goes off the scale when my dishwasher is running.
  - andreasley 6y ago
    Interesting. But it makes sense: Vaporization of detergents and other elements in the water. Some sources: [1] https://www.haywardscore.com/articles/is-your-dishwasher-impacting-your-indoor-air-quality/ https://www.haywardscore.com/articles/is-your-dishwasher-imp... [2] https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/826 https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/826
  - op00to 6y ago
    Does this cause you concern or make you curious?
- MertsA 6y ago
  >There's absolutely room for skepticism, but dismissing it out of hand by equating it to cell-tower crazies is ridiculous. Dismissing her symptoms as completely fabricated is ridiculous but I think it's entirely reasonable to dismiss her explanation for them out of hand because it is entirely on-par with cell-tower crazies spouting off nonsense about things they don't understand. She was on the third floor, no one else is having symptoms, lead and arsenic contamination beneath a foot of dirt and a big thick concrete foundation is never going to plausibly cause very high VOC levels only in one third floor apartment. She even dismisses expert opinions that disagree with her idea as "some expert wordsmithing and spin". She even claims that it's contaminated the tap water, as if it must just come from the groundwater. I find the claim that there's a high VOC level in an apartment causing numerous health problems completely reasonable. It's the blatantly ridiculous leap of blaming remediated soil contamination that makes me dismayed. Quite frankly it makes people dismiss real environmental health problems by throwing in that nonsense along with it. There's tons of valid explanations here, maybe when the flooring was replaced they went with a different supplier for that faux wood laminate and it's off gassing formaldehyde. Maybe the carpet in some part of the apartment had a similar issue. Maybe the drywall had to be replaced in that unit in the past and it's contaminated akin to the imported Chinese drywall back in the 00s. Maybe the paint stripper the apartment complex maintenance worker used was based on DCM and he accidently tipped over the can and they just said "screw it, we're putting new flooring over it anyways". There's a thousand different valid explanations here, her explanation is nowhere on the map.
  - drewgross 6y ago
    It's also entirely plausible that every apartment DOES have high VOC levels, but she is the only one reacting to them. Or that other people are also reacting to them and haven't figured out why yet.
sologoub 6y ago
> San Francisco and 'laissez-faire' don't really go together. And they totally didn’t authorize a residential high rise building with foundation on sand that started to lean... oh wait https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinkin...
- kortilla 6y ago
  The sand was well-known and it had a foundation that was supposed to handle it. So that’s a poor example of regulation overlooking something.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  Are you trying to argue that San Francisco is a laissez-faire developer utopia?
spider-mario 6y ago
> How do you know she isn't experiencing psychosomatic symptoms? Is there evidence that psychosomatic effects can be so strong as to account for a measurable 10% drop in resting heart rate? Especially since her symptoms appeared before she even started measuring air quality.
- krooj 6y ago
  Dude - absolutely. Your brain is a powerful and weird thing, and simply thinking of a thing can influence your autonomic nervous system, changing breathing patterns, heart rate, blood pressure, etc. Ask anyone that has general anxiety or a panic disorder.
  - spider-mario 6y ago
    Anxiety and panic tend to cause an increase in heart rate, though, not a drop. The symptoms also started before she had any suspicion about what could be the problem.
    - micropsia 6y ago
      Yeah, anxiety increases heart rate not lowers it. Her heart rate while living there looked to be around 50bpm in the charts, which is apparently "low" -- not just for her personally, but medically low. High heart rate: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/175241#causes https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/175241#causes (anxiety) Low heart rate: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/is-a-slow-heart-rate-good-or-bad-for-you/ https://health.clevelandclinic.org/is-a-slow-heart-rate-good... (nothing psychological)
      - brianwawok 6y ago
        As a runner, when I’m in marathon training mode, my rest heart rate is very close to 40. Pro or very serious athletes can have a resting heart rate near 30. It’s actually a great way to tell your current fitness level (if you know your own baselines) You would need to know a lot more before you worry about 50 being low. And yes, I had to get an EKG and the doctor raised his eye brow at my heart rate, but I said I run and he immediately Moved on.

GavinMcG 6y ago

1) It's not in San Francisco. 2) The development was explicitly expedited with permission of the city. 3) She actually collected data on both tVOCs and her physical symptoms. There's absolutely room for skepticism, but dismissing it out of hand by equating it to cell-tower crazies is ridiculous.

macspoofing 6y ago
>There's absolutely room for skepticism I'll bite. How would that look like in your opinion? In other words, to which part of her story would you apply this skepticism? >The development was explicitly expedited with permission of the city. What does that have to do with anything?!!? This is a complete non-sequitur? You're throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks. >but dismissing it out of hand by equating it to cell-tower crazies is ridiculous Why? People who believe they are harmed by cellular towers present very real symptoms. They are sincere. How do you you know her symptoms aren't psychosomatic?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- GavinMcG 6y ago
  It has to do with your comment that the city would "deny development license if the proposed building will cast an overly large shadow over a playground." That's clearly not the case, here: they expedited development, rather than denying it. I said there's room for skepticism because we don't know that it's not psychosomatic. But: she gathered environmental data, and reports completed prior to her moving there had already concluded that "VOCs were above residential limits and, in some cases, even above vapor intrusion risk levels." The developer had made plans for advanced vapor mitigation. One of the reasons the area was a Superfund site in the first place was due to VOCs. In other words, there are a number of external reasons to think this is plausible.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    > said there's room for skepticism because we don't know that it's not psychosomatic. Actually. We don't know anything. Or rather, we only know what she chose to present, already colored to match her conclusion. How do you know some pertinent information isn't missing from her account? >But: she gathered environmental data, and reports completed prior to her moving there had already concluded that "VOCs were above residential limits So what? Let's say VOCs are above residential limits (and I'm not sure about that given that untrained people using consumer sensors are liable to get a fair share of false results or improperly interpreted results) ... BUT OK ... how does she (and you) know that this is what is causing her symptoms? > In other words, there are a number of external reasons to think this is plausible. I wouldn't go that far. All we can really say is that she is experiencing symptoms. Those symptoms could be a result of anything (or nothing). Nothing she says passes the smell test because she's engaging in very typical conspiracy theory thinking. She decided that the cause of her symptoms is living in an apartment built on reclaimed land for very flimsy reasons. And then she went around cherry picking evidence to support that conclusion. I mean, she wrote a message to her apartment management company that stated: "The chemicals are still pouring out full blast" ... are they really? The management company sent an inspector to test for chemical and gas leaks ... and nothing. She hired her own consultant to perform the tests, and that person found nothing... and on and on and on. She sounds EXACTLY like the people who are convinced cell towers are poisoning them. Every piece of countervailing is ignored by her ... just like a conspiracy theorist. She strikes me as someone who spiraled into this rabbit hole and got absolutely convinced this one thing (out of infinite number of possible things) is causing her symptoms. Needless to say, I'm skeptical.
azinman2 6y ago
VOC sensors are a kind of catch all, and consumer brands often have sensors that aren’t not of the highest quality. Somethings are more toxic than others, but you won’t get any useful breakdown from them. These nighttime spikes and variability over the day are consistent with my own use of these machines, but I do not suffer anything like what she describes.
fnord77 6y ago
my VOC sensor goes off the scale when my dishwasher is running.
- andreasley 6y ago
  Interesting. But it makes sense: Vaporization of detergents and other elements in the water. Some sources: [1] https://www.haywardscore.com/articles/is-your-dishwasher-impacting-your-indoor-air-quality/ https://www.haywardscore.com/articles/is-your-dishwasher-imp... [2] https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/826 https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/826
- op00to 6y ago
  Does this cause you concern or make you curious?
MertsA 6y ago
>There's absolutely room for skepticism, but dismissing it out of hand by equating it to cell-tower crazies is ridiculous. Dismissing her symptoms as completely fabricated is ridiculous but I think it's entirely reasonable to dismiss her explanation for them out of hand because it is entirely on-par with cell-tower crazies spouting off nonsense about things they don't understand. She was on the third floor, no one else is having symptoms, lead and arsenic contamination beneath a foot of dirt and a big thick concrete foundation is never going to plausibly cause very high VOC levels only in one third floor apartment. She even dismisses expert opinions that disagree with her idea as "some expert wordsmithing and spin". She even claims that it's contaminated the tap water, as if it must just come from the groundwater. I find the claim that there's a high VOC level in an apartment causing numerous health problems completely reasonable. It's the blatantly ridiculous leap of blaming remediated soil contamination that makes me dismayed. Quite frankly it makes people dismiss real environmental health problems by throwing in that nonsense along with it. There's tons of valid explanations here, maybe when the flooring was replaced they went with a different supplier for that faux wood laminate and it's off gassing formaldehyde. Maybe the carpet in some part of the apartment had a similar issue. Maybe the drywall had to be replaced in that unit in the past and it's contaminated akin to the imported Chinese drywall back in the 00s. Maybe the paint stripper the apartment complex maintenance worker used was based on DCM and he accidently tipped over the can and they just said "screw it, we're putting new flooring over it anyways". There's a thousand different valid explanations here, her explanation is nowhere on the map.
- drewgross 6y ago
  It's also entirely plausible that every apartment DOES have high VOC levels, but she is the only one reacting to them. Or that other people are also reacting to them and haven't figured out why yet.

sologoub 6y ago

> San Francisco and 'laissez-faire' don't really go together. And they totally didn’t authorize a residential high rise building with foundation on sand that started to lean... oh wait https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinking-Millenium-Tower-to-finally-get-fixed-15439863.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinkin...

kortilla 6y ago
The sand was well-known and it had a foundation that was supposed to handle it. So that’s a poor example of regulation overlooking something.
macspoofing 6y ago
Are you trying to argue that San Francisco is a laissez-faire developer utopia?

spider-mario 6y ago

> How do you know she isn't experiencing psychosomatic symptoms? Is there evidence that psychosomatic effects can be so strong as to account for a measurable 10% drop in resting heart rate? Especially since her symptoms appeared before she even started measuring air quality.

krooj 6y ago
Dude - absolutely. Your brain is a powerful and weird thing, and simply thinking of a thing can influence your autonomic nervous system, changing breathing patterns, heart rate, blood pressure, etc. Ask anyone that has general anxiety or a panic disorder.
- spider-mario 6y ago
  Anxiety and panic tend to cause an increase in heart rate, though, not a drop. The symptoms also started before she had any suspicion about what could be the problem.
  - micropsia 6y ago
    Yeah, anxiety increases heart rate not lowers it. Her heart rate while living there looked to be around 50bpm in the charts, which is apparently "low" -- not just for her personally, but medically low. High heart rate: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/175241#causes https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/175241#causes (anxiety) Low heart rate: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/is-a-slow-heart-rate-good-or-bad-for-you/ https://health.clevelandclinic.org/is-a-slow-heart-rate-good... (nothing psychological)
    - brianwawok 6y ago
      As a runner, when I’m in marathon training mode, my rest heart rate is very close to 40. Pro or very serious athletes can have a resting heart rate near 30. It’s actually a great way to tell your current fitness level (if you know your own baselines) You would need to know a lot more before you worry about 50 being low. And yes, I had to get an EKG and the doctor raised his eye brow at my heart rate, but I said I run and he immediately Moved on.