5 ms·

It's not terrible advice because beginners tend to overwrite. This is why you'll find fantasy novels where the first page is scene setting, usually with a twist

It's not terrible advice because beginners tend to overwrite. This is why you'll find fantasy novels where the first page is scene setting, usually with a twist of the picturesque which is supposed to awe the reader. But nothing much happens until paragraph 5, by which time no one cares, because they want a novel, not a tour guide. ("And on our left we have the Unicorn Park of Alkkl'Blah. Built by the Morgon Autarchy to commemorate their triumph in the Zoonac Wars of the third century, its thousand foot crystal spires are legendary for...") You can do a lot with a single telling detail. Instead of describing everything, describe one thing that sums up everything else. Leave the rest to the reader's imagination.

mhb 6y ago
...no one cares, because they want a novel, not a tour guide That criticism is pretty applicable to The Sun Also Rises. Two great sentences and a lot of setting description.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  I politely disagree. There is very little useless detail in that book. Every place detail opens up the characters who live there, in how they bother to notice or not notice it. It also creates the contrasts between Paris, Pamplona and the intermediate settings.
  - mhb 6y ago
    Thanks. I am open to the explanation that I did not appreciate it.
pmichaud 6y ago
(Just to be clear, I don't think it's "terrible advice," just not the most relevant for beginners.) I definitely recognize what you're talking about, but my sense is that there are two core problems of poor writing, neither of which is helped at all by this advice: 1. Having something to say at all. This is the art of it, not the craft. If you have something resonant to communicate and you do it with living words, audiences suddenly become quite forgiving of sloppy craftsmanship. I won't dunk on any books in particular, but we can all think of books that are both wildly popular and objectively terrible. I think the right advice to overcome this issue is "live a life. Keep your eyes open. Like really go for it, man." Maybe after the first, breathless draft is complete then say to this author: good, now try cutting half the words but keeping everything you intended. 2. Bad craftsmanship. Poorly constructed scenes, paragraphs, sentences. I think the right advice here is "write. write. write. read. write more." The aphorism goes something like "everyone has a million terrible words inside them, and they must write them all out before any of the good ones emerge." Claim: in the normal course of events, if an intelligent and earnest person is an avid writer and reader and student of the world, their million words will become progressively better until they are finally good. I believe my quantity over quality focus for students is borne out by the research across domains. "Nobody likes exposition dumps or purple prose, brutally cut everything" not only isn't central to the goal of generating a bunch of words, but it may actually discourage people from producing the volume of work I think they'll need to become good. I say write purple, write a 200,000 word infodump. No one likes infodumps until some genius comes along with the first pure infodump novel that sells 5mm copies while everyone else complains, and then that's the publishing game for the next 10 years. Just whatever you do, write.
- Animats 6y ago
  - Having something to say at all. Yes. Most bloggers. A full screen of infodump about themselves and what they were doing, then, perhaps, just perhaps, some content. Too often, just enough content to maximize clicks. - Bad craftsmanship. That's a teachable skill. Merely writing many words is not enough. Someone must criticize them. Back when journalism had copy editors, many writers learned their trade as newspaper reporters. - Just whatever you do, write. And if no one is reading it, please stop.
  - CharlesW 6y ago
    > And if no one is reading it, please stop. This is not advice I would personally give, because: (1) Not-writing mostly guarantees that one is not going to get better at it. (2) Current audience size isn't a reliable indicator of whether one "should" (if we're judging) be doing a thing, whether that thing is writing, podcasting, creating open source projects, etc. Everyone has to get through "the gap" between one's taste and one's skills somehow. https://vimeo.com/85040589 https://vimeo.com/85040589
  - pmichaud 6y ago
    No, sorry. I'm not trying to pitch a unified theory of writing pedagogy that precludes clickbait blogging. I'm trying to say that I think the actually most effective advice, on average, for an "intelligent and earnest person [who] is an avid writer and reader and student of the world" is to write and don't stop. All the caveats you might be tempted to add are already covered in the people I'm talking to, they happen naturally. On average.
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    I agree with the other replies that it doesn't make sense to ask bloggers to stop writing if they don't have many readers, not even if their writing is truly poor. Many bloggers aren't aiming to be the next Joel Spolsky or Raymond Chen, they're content with relatively few readers, and that's a good thing. If nothing else, writing is good exercise for future writing. If the 'blogosphere' is functioning well, it shouldn't much matter if inexperienced bloggers are churning out poor quality posts, as the best ones should still rise to prominence just the same. The average quality of all blog posts doesn't much matter. The existence of high quality blog posts is what matters. On a somewhat different note, I'd ask bloggers not to misrepresent their skill level. It might be good exercise for a student to write about a topic they're learning about, but it's frustrating to read a post written in an authoritative tone which turns out to be full of rookie misunderstandings.
watwut 6y ago
I think that "no one cares" is simply not truth. These books do have their readers who do love them. And that style of writing is not even niche, it is not rare to like such books.
billfruit 6y ago
Somehow there is a world of difference in when one moves from Henry James to Hemingway. It is as if James violates every maxim of how to write simply and clearly and succinctly, but ultimately his writing has aura of ambiguity which enriches it rather than diminishes it. He will go paragraphs and pages even, one has to mentally unwind a lot of it, like an intricate puzzle, to grasp the tiniest specks, bits of knowledge about the story, about the plot. And the thing is he doesn't do much description, all the details are abstracted but the seeming convoluted manner, and subtle hints deducted from indirection, it does create a captivating experience.
Avshalom 6y ago
With fantasy novels specifically, yes people do want a tour guide. The Way Of Kings being 5x as long with 0.5x the plot movement of Mistborn didn't happen because brandon sanderson forgot how to write. It happens because Epic Fantasy as a genre is, in part, about being lead through a world.
- bitexploder 6y ago
  Yes. You sign up knowing you will have a paragraph upon paragraph about a characters clothing. Epic fantasy is meant to be fully realized and asks much more of its reader. The four best modern epic fantasy: Wheel of Time, Malazan Book of the Fallen, Song of Fire and Ice, and Way of Kings. I think GRRM has the best balance of pacing, but you don’t just sit down and casually read these stories in a weekend. Well, you can, and some people like to do a fast read and then a slow read to full absorb it. Ultimately, I quite enjoy it. The slow pace is nice. It can be an exercise in patience, but they are quite rewarding to me. There are plenty of books out there that go faster and have tighter, cleaner writing.
- yokaze 6y ago
  > It happens because Epic Fantasy as a genre is, in part, about being lead through a world. I don't see there a disagreement, it is "just" a question on how one is lead through the world: - Are you lead by the experiences by the characters of the book, and you simply feel the depth of the world behind it, and you learn to understand it over time. - Or do you have the narrator simply explain everything to you. - Or does some protagonist takes over that role. That seems a bit lazy to me, and not so appealing. Still, it can made for a good read, mind you. I definitely swallowed some of those books.

mhb 6y ago

...no one cares, because they want a novel, not a tour guide That criticism is pretty applicable to The Sun Also Rises. Two great sentences and a lot of setting description.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
I politely disagree. There is very little useless detail in that book. Every place detail opens up the characters who live there, in how they bother to notice or not notice it. It also creates the contrasts between Paris, Pamplona and the intermediate settings.
- mhb 6y ago
  Thanks. I am open to the explanation that I did not appreciate it.

pmichaud 6y ago

(Just to be clear, I don't think it's "terrible advice," just not the most relevant for beginners.) I definitely recognize what you're talking about, but my sense is that there are two core problems of poor writing, neither of which is helped at all by this advice: 1. Having something to say at all. This is the art of it, not the craft. If you have something resonant to communicate and you do it with living words, audiences suddenly become quite forgiving of sloppy craftsmanship. I won't dunk on any books in particular, but we can all think of books that are both wildly popular and objectively terrible. I think the right advice to overcome this issue is "live a life. Keep your eyes open. Like really go for it, man." Maybe after the first, breathless draft is complete then say to this author: good, now try cutting half the words but keeping everything you intended. 2. Bad craftsmanship. Poorly constructed scenes, paragraphs, sentences. I think the right advice here is "write. write. write. read. write more." The aphorism goes something like "everyone has a million terrible words inside them, and they must write them all out before any of the good ones emerge." Claim: in the normal course of events, if an intelligent and earnest person is an avid writer and reader and student of the world, their million words will become progressively better until they are finally good. I believe my quantity over quality focus for students is borne out by the research across domains. "Nobody likes exposition dumps or purple prose, brutally cut everything" not only isn't central to the goal of generating a bunch of words, but it may actually discourage people from producing the volume of work I think they'll need to become good. I say write purple, write a 200,000 word infodump. No one likes infodumps until some genius comes along with the first pure infodump novel that sells 5mm copies while everyone else complains, and then that's the publishing game for the next 10 years. Just whatever you do, write.

Animats 6y ago
- Having something to say at all. Yes. Most bloggers. A full screen of infodump about themselves and what they were doing, then, perhaps, just perhaps, some content. Too often, just enough content to maximize clicks. - Bad craftsmanship. That's a teachable skill. Merely writing many words is not enough. Someone must criticize them. Back when journalism had copy editors, many writers learned their trade as newspaper reporters. - Just whatever you do, write. And if no one is reading it, please stop.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  > And if no one is reading it, please stop. This is not advice I would personally give, because: (1) Not-writing mostly guarantees that one is not going to get better at it. (2) Current audience size isn't a reliable indicator of whether one "should" (if we're judging) be doing a thing, whether that thing is writing, podcasting, creating open source projects, etc. Everyone has to get through "the gap" between one's taste and one's skills somehow. https://vimeo.com/85040589 https://vimeo.com/85040589
- pmichaud 6y ago
  No, sorry. I'm not trying to pitch a unified theory of writing pedagogy that precludes clickbait blogging. I'm trying to say that I think the actually most effective advice, on average, for an "intelligent and earnest person [who] is an avid writer and reader and student of the world" is to write and don't stop. All the caveats you might be tempted to add are already covered in the people I'm talking to, they happen naturally. On average.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  I agree with the other replies that it doesn't make sense to ask bloggers to stop writing if they don't have many readers, not even if their writing is truly poor. Many bloggers aren't aiming to be the next Joel Spolsky or Raymond Chen, they're content with relatively few readers, and that's a good thing. If nothing else, writing is good exercise for future writing. If the 'blogosphere' is functioning well, it shouldn't much matter if inexperienced bloggers are churning out poor quality posts, as the best ones should still rise to prominence just the same. The average quality of all blog posts doesn't much matter. The existence of high quality blog posts is what matters. On a somewhat different note, I'd ask bloggers not to misrepresent their skill level. It might be good exercise for a student to write about a topic they're learning about, but it's frustrating to read a post written in an authoritative tone which turns out to be full of rookie misunderstandings.

watwut 6y ago

I think that "no one cares" is simply not truth. These books do have their readers who do love them. And that style of writing is not even niche, it is not rare to like such books.

billfruit 6y ago

Somehow there is a world of difference in when one moves from Henry James to Hemingway. It is as if James violates every maxim of how to write simply and clearly and succinctly, but ultimately his writing has aura of ambiguity which enriches it rather than diminishes it. He will go paragraphs and pages even, one has to mentally unwind a lot of it, like an intricate puzzle, to grasp the tiniest specks, bits of knowledge about the story, about the plot. And the thing is he doesn't do much description, all the details are abstracted but the seeming convoluted manner, and subtle hints deducted from indirection, it does create a captivating experience.

Avshalom 6y ago

With fantasy novels specifically, yes people do want a tour guide. The Way Of Kings being 5x as long with 0.5x the plot movement of Mistborn didn't happen because brandon sanderson forgot how to write. It happens because Epic Fantasy as a genre is, in part, about being lead through a world.

bitexploder 6y ago
Yes. You sign up knowing you will have a paragraph upon paragraph about a characters clothing. Epic fantasy is meant to be fully realized and asks much more of its reader. The four best modern epic fantasy: Wheel of Time, Malazan Book of the Fallen, Song of Fire and Ice, and Way of Kings. I think GRRM has the best balance of pacing, but you don’t just sit down and casually read these stories in a weekend. Well, you can, and some people like to do a fast read and then a slow read to full absorb it. Ultimately, I quite enjoy it. The slow pace is nice. It can be an exercise in patience, but they are quite rewarding to me. There are plenty of books out there that go faster and have tighter, cleaner writing.
yokaze 6y ago
> It happens because Epic Fantasy as a genre is, in part, about being lead through a world. I don't see there a disagreement, it is "just" a question on how one is lead through the world: - Are you lead by the experiences by the characters of the book, and you simply feel the depth of the world behind it, and you learn to understand it over time. - Or do you have the narrator simply explain everything to you. - Or does some protagonist takes over that role. That seems a bit lazy to me, and not so appealing. Still, it can made for a good read, mind you. I definitely swallowed some of those books.