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I think that philosophers like Judith Butler write impenetrable prose to sound intelligent and to make it almost impossible to argue against their positions. An

I think that philosophers like Judith Butler write impenetrable prose to sound intelligent and to make it almost impossible to argue against their positions. Anything worth saying can be said simply.

gameswithgo 6y ago
and jordan peterson. I wish I knew if it was intentional and for what reasons or if they just think that way.
salmo 6y ago
I blame Heidegger for this. I'm sure someone can cite someone previous, but that was it for me as an undergrad. It was so alluring at first. It sounds so smart, complex, and nuanced. But then it started to really kick in and I realized it was just opaque, vague, and unapproachable. My CS/Math side kicked in. Complex statements should be able to be broken down into compositions of simpler ones. You have the Descartes and Rawls of the world, that were able to distill a topic to the point any college student could understand without knowing anything about Philsophy. Kant and, even more, Spinoza weren't exactly approachable, but were able to construct their work by deeply composing simple structures. I came to agree that this artistic writing with overly complex sentence (or in Heidegger's case, compound word) structures, overuse of haughty philosophic jargon, etc. is mostly a large scale defense against argument. It becomes the gnosticism of philosophy: you think it's wrong because you just don't get it.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
One could argue that anything worth seeing can be said simply, but it might require vocabulary that has a large corpus of knowledge behind it. For example, scientist couldn’t make quick progress if they couldn’t speak succinctly about Fourier transforms, but that concept is quite difficult for a large portion of the population to grok.
Digory 6y ago
It feels like we are falling away from the ideal of speaking plainly. That was a product of idealistic journalism, Strunk & White, and mid-century writers like Hemingway. You will frequently see Tyler Cowen call out “Straussian” prose. Strauss suggested that original ideas could rarely be said simply. Wiki: > In 1952 he [Strauss] published Persecution and the Art of Writing, arguing that serious writers write esoterically, that is, with multiple or layered meanings, often disguised within irony or paradox, obscure references, even deliberate self-contradiction.

I think that philosophers like Judith Butler write impenetrable prose to sound intelligent and to make it almost impossible to argue against their positions. Anything worth saying can be said simply.

gameswithgo 6y ago

and jordan peterson. I wish I knew if it was intentional and for what reasons or if they just think that way.

salmo 6y ago

I blame Heidegger for this. I'm sure someone can cite someone previous, but that was it for me as an undergrad. It was so alluring at first. It sounds so smart, complex, and nuanced. But then it started to really kick in and I realized it was just opaque, vague, and unapproachable. My CS/Math side kicked in. Complex statements should be able to be broken down into compositions of simpler ones. You have the Descartes and Rawls of the world, that were able to distill a topic to the point any college student could understand without knowing anything about Philsophy. Kant and, even more, Spinoza weren't exactly approachable, but were able to construct their work by deeply composing simple structures. I came to agree that this artistic writing with overly complex sentence (or in Heidegger's case, compound word) structures, overuse of haughty philosophic jargon, etc. is mostly a large scale defense against argument. It becomes the gnosticism of philosophy: you think it's wrong because you just don't get it.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

One could argue that anything worth seeing can be said simply, but it might require vocabulary that has a large corpus of knowledge behind it. For example, scientist couldn’t make quick progress if they couldn’t speak succinctly about Fourier transforms, but that concept is quite difficult for a large portion of the population to grok.

Digory 6y ago

It feels like we are falling away from the ideal of speaking plainly. That was a product of idealistic journalism, Strunk & White, and mid-century writers like Hemingway. You will frequently see Tyler Cowen call out “Straussian” prose. Strauss suggested that original ideas could rarely be said simply. Wiki: > In 1952 he [Strauss] published Persecution and the Art of Writing, arguing that serious writers write esoterically, that is, with multiple or layered meanings, often disguised within irony or paradox, obscure references, even deliberate self-contradiction.