4 ms·

> it's hardly the fault of either the captain or the port authority to predict such a freak weather occurrence. Yes. It is. And to be insured against it happen

> it's hardly the fault of either the captain or the port authority to predict such a freak weather occurrence. Yes. It is. And to be insured against it happening. So at this stage the Egyptian authorities don't necessarily know who they are picking a fight with.

tsujp 6y ago
I disagree. The captain of the ship relinquishes control to the pilots from the port authority because of their knowledge of the port at hand. If there was a sandstorm with strong winds that pushed the ship aground what could the captain do? Dismiss the pilot and gain control of an already out-of-control ship? The pilots know more about this area, so before the point of no return the captain, I'd imagine, would trust their judgement. Remember: pilots from port authority's are experts about the ports they pilot through. Also, the pilots are not meteorologists and even if they were how many times does your local weather station, or mine, or anyone else's, get the weather forecast wrong. Huge ships of this size have so much momentum that I'd imagine as a captain or a pilot or anyone else who works in the bridge concerning the ships movement has to plan dozens of minutes and kilometres in advance. Want to stop the ship? That requires about 3 Km of runway. Want to turn around? About a 2 Km radius of turn space required. That's a lot of planning. By the time the ship is definitely running aground it's too late to do anything about it and before then the best the captain can do is "umm" and "ahh" every decision the pilots are making. Yes there should be an insurance claim but it's not against the Ever Given it should be against this freak weather event much like how if a tornado blows a house down you have a claim for a natural disaster and not a claim against your local council you live in.
- jasode 6y ago
  >The captain of the ship relinquishes control to the pilots from the port authority This isn't quite true and has to be worded carefully to explain how responsibility is assigned. The ship is not allowed permission to come into port/harbor/canal without a local pilot on board. That's very different from relinquishing control to the local pilot. The local pilot acts more like an advisor and guide for navigation but the ship's helmsman & captain still retain physical control of the ship's speed and steering. From the reports I read of this specific Ever Given incident, the local guide pilot didn't command the helmsman to speed up to 13 knots. The ship's captain is still ultimately responsible for what happens. Does that mean that even when I'm required to use the local pilot, he still can't be blamed for things going wrong?!? Yes, that's how it works. The ship has no choice of not accepting that deal if it wants access to that port. EDIT : I found a video with a chief engineer from a cargo ship explaining maritime responsibility. Deep link: https://youtu.be/ltdHRdtEHE4?t=3m14s https://youtu.be/ltdHRdtEHE4?t=3m14s
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    Thats sounds to me like this: if you want drive though my land, I am driving, but if i hit anyone you go to jail. I dont know much about ships, but thanksfully on land law doesnt work that wY
    - manojlds 6y ago
      Isn't that Suez specific. Panama doesn't work this way (and given the complexity, can't work this way)
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - manquer 6y ago
      Think of pilots like the air traffic controller in a airport The pilots don't drive anything. they are only supposed to advice on local geography and weather etc. Most experienced captains will basically ignore them and keep them in their cabins for the journey in crossing the suez. The system is inherited from hundreds of years maritime practice, back in those days pilots were essential to maneuver through local complexities in geography and weather, and were bribed for better service/smuggling etc. Giving bribes in ports is very old practice even the US navy got into hot water recently in Asia for it.
- avereveard 6y ago
  > I disagree. The captain of the ship relinquishes control to the pilots from the port authority because of their knowledge of the port at hand. I thought these where on board in advisory, hands-off-controls roles only. So the real fight will happen around the cabin logs and recordings, to whether the ship pilot followed all the advisor pilots demands or not, and even then it is going a long, complicate mess to pin down responsabilities. But the log will eventually surface and these will be super interesting.
  - manquer 6y ago
    Ships afaik do not have as evolved FDR type systems to record interactions between people they way planes do. Besides such interactions do not need to be conducted on the bridge at all. Lot more likely the insurance company will negotiate for actual salvage plus some compensation to the government, plus few palms will be greased.
vladd 6y ago
>> He said in a phone interview with a pro-government TV talk show that the amount takes into account the salvage operation, costs of stalled traffic, and lost transit fees for the week that the Ever Given had blocked the Suez Canal. << It makes no sense for the lost transit fees to be paid by the insurance companies as most vessels waited the 6-day period and then got to traverse the canal with some days in delay (so Egypt still got that money). In the end the claim seems exaggerate and might be indicative of Egypt's lack of focus on long term relations. It's one thing to pay 500'000 USD for a passage, but if I know that I have a 0.05% probability of paying 1 billion dollars (which is another 500'000 USD expected payout on average) then surrounding Africa without any fees is all of a sudden a lot more attractive.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  Having company with minimal balance and ready to go bankrupt if necessary is a lot more attractive.
- jwalton 6y ago
  The number may have been chosen for legal reasons. Here in Ontario, we have no fault insurance, but if you're in an accident with another car from out-of-province, and you caused the accident, you/your insurance will be sued for $10M. It'll always be $10M, because that's the maximum that can be awarded; if you did $3000 in damage and they ask for $3000, then $3000 is the most they can get, but if they ask for $3000 in damages and $9,997,000 in punitive damages... they'll probably still get $3000, but they might more, so why not?
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > Here in Ontario, we have no fault insurance […] I really wish it was named something else, because it causes all sorts of confusion: > A common misconception about no-fault insurance is that insurance companies won't determine who is at fault after an accident. However, this isn't the case. According to the Ontario Insurance Act, in every accident with multiple drivers, insurance companies must always assign a percentage of fault to each driver involved. Other provinces have similar laws. > No-fault insurance simply means your insurance company will handle your claim and pay your damages regardless of who is determined to be at fault for causing the collision. The other person’s insurance company will do the same. * https://www.insurancehotline.com/resources/no-fault-insurance-what-it-really-means-to-you/ https://www.insurancehotline.com/resources/no-fault-insuranc... There are legislated rules on determining fault in the most common cases: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Fault_Determination_Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Fault_Determination_Ru...
phamilton 6y ago
It depends on whether there is a sufficient force majeure clause in the contract.

tsujp 6y ago

I disagree. The captain of the ship relinquishes control to the pilots from the port authority because of their knowledge of the port at hand. If there was a sandstorm with strong winds that pushed the ship aground what could the captain do? Dismiss the pilot and gain control of an already out-of-control ship? The pilots know more about this area, so before the point of no return the captain, I'd imagine, would trust their judgement. Remember: pilots from port authority's are experts about the ports they pilot through. Also, the pilots are not meteorologists and even if they were how many times does your local weather station, or mine, or anyone else's, get the weather forecast wrong. Huge ships of this size have so much momentum that I'd imagine as a captain or a pilot or anyone else who works in the bridge concerning the ships movement has to plan dozens of minutes and kilometres in advance. Want to stop the ship? That requires about 3 Km of runway. Want to turn around? About a 2 Km radius of turn space required. That's a lot of planning. By the time the ship is definitely running aground it's too late to do anything about it and before then the best the captain can do is "umm" and "ahh" every decision the pilots are making. Yes there should be an insurance claim but it's not against the Ever Given it should be against this freak weather event much like how if a tornado blows a house down you have a claim for a natural disaster and not a claim against your local council you live in.

jasode 6y ago
>The captain of the ship relinquishes control to the pilots from the port authority This isn't quite true and has to be worded carefully to explain how responsibility is assigned. The ship is not allowed permission to come into port/harbor/canal without a local pilot on board. That's very different from relinquishing control to the local pilot. The local pilot acts more like an advisor and guide for navigation but the ship's helmsman & captain still retain physical control of the ship's speed and steering. From the reports I read of this specific Ever Given incident, the local guide pilot didn't command the helmsman to speed up to 13 knots. The ship's captain is still ultimately responsible for what happens. Does that mean that even when I'm required to use the local pilot, he still can't be blamed for things going wrong?!? Yes, that's how it works. The ship has no choice of not accepting that deal if it wants access to that port. EDIT : I found a video with a chief engineer from a cargo ship explaining maritime responsibility. Deep link: https://youtu.be/ltdHRdtEHE4?t=3m14s https://youtu.be/ltdHRdtEHE4?t=3m14s
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Thats sounds to me like this: if you want drive though my land, I am driving, but if i hit anyone you go to jail. I dont know much about ships, but thanksfully on land law doesnt work that wY
  - manojlds 6y ago
    Isn't that Suez specific. Panama doesn't work this way (and given the complexity, can't work this way)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - manquer 6y ago
    Think of pilots like the air traffic controller in a airport The pilots don't drive anything. they are only supposed to advice on local geography and weather etc. Most experienced captains will basically ignore them and keep them in their cabins for the journey in crossing the suez. The system is inherited from hundreds of years maritime practice, back in those days pilots were essential to maneuver through local complexities in geography and weather, and were bribed for better service/smuggling etc. Giving bribes in ports is very old practice even the US navy got into hot water recently in Asia for it.
avereveard 6y ago
> I disagree. The captain of the ship relinquishes control to the pilots from the port authority because of their knowledge of the port at hand. I thought these where on board in advisory, hands-off-controls roles only. So the real fight will happen around the cabin logs and recordings, to whether the ship pilot followed all the advisor pilots demands or not, and even then it is going a long, complicate mess to pin down responsabilities. But the log will eventually surface and these will be super interesting.
- manquer 6y ago
  Ships afaik do not have as evolved FDR type systems to record interactions between people they way planes do. Besides such interactions do not need to be conducted on the bridge at all. Lot more likely the insurance company will negotiate for actual salvage plus some compensation to the government, plus few palms will be greased.

vladd 6y ago

>> He said in a phone interview with a pro-government TV talk show that the amount takes into account the salvage operation, costs of stalled traffic, and lost transit fees for the week that the Ever Given had blocked the Suez Canal. << It makes no sense for the lost transit fees to be paid by the insurance companies as most vessels waited the 6-day period and then got to traverse the canal with some days in delay (so Egypt still got that money). In the end the claim seems exaggerate and might be indicative of Egypt's lack of focus on long term relations. It's one thing to pay 500'000 USD for a passage, but if I know that I have a 0.05% probability of paying 1 billion dollars (which is another 500'000 USD expected payout on average) then surrounding Africa without any fees is all of a sudden a lot more attractive.

vbezhenar 6y ago
Having company with minimal balance and ready to go bankrupt if necessary is a lot more attractive.
jwalton 6y ago
The number may have been chosen for legal reasons. Here in Ontario, we have no fault insurance, but if you're in an accident with another car from out-of-province, and you caused the accident, you/your insurance will be sued for $10M. It'll always be $10M, because that's the maximum that can be awarded; if you did $3000 in damage and they ask for $3000, then $3000 is the most they can get, but if they ask for $3000 in damages and $9,997,000 in punitive damages... they'll probably still get $3000, but they might more, so why not?
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > Here in Ontario, we have no fault insurance […] I really wish it was named something else, because it causes all sorts of confusion: > A common misconception about no-fault insurance is that insurance companies won't determine who is at fault after an accident. However, this isn't the case. According to the Ontario Insurance Act, in every accident with multiple drivers, insurance companies must always assign a percentage of fault to each driver involved. Other provinces have similar laws. > No-fault insurance simply means your insurance company will handle your claim and pay your damages regardless of who is determined to be at fault for causing the collision. The other person’s insurance company will do the same. * https://www.insurancehotline.com/resources/no-fault-insurance-what-it-really-means-to-you/ https://www.insurancehotline.com/resources/no-fault-insuranc... There are legislated rules on determining fault in the most common cases: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Fault_Determination_Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Fault_Determination_Ru...

phamilton 6y ago

It depends on whether there is a sufficient force majeure clause in the contract.