5 ms·

I feel like when renter friendly laws get passed people think of fat-cat, tophat-wearing Manhattan landlords and don't really consider that the same exploitable

by ng12 6y ago

I feel like when renter friendly laws get passed people think of fat-cat, tophat-wearing Manhattan landlords and don't really consider that the same exploitable laws also apply to an immigrant in Queens who needs rental income from the first floor unit to afford their mortgage.

diebeforei485 6y ago
Perhaps the state (or the city) can have some sort of program like tax relief for low-income landlords who were affected by this.
- lbotos 6y ago
  This story seems like someone who is extremely over leveraged: - two properties (neither owned outright) - tesla I'm saying this as someone who is about to be 5x leveraged on a 2 fam property in NYC. What kind of leverage does this guy have 10x? 12x? More? In NYC, CONED is not shutting off gas for non payment due to covid: https://www.coned.com/en/about-us/media-center/news/coronavirus/updates https://www.coned.com/en/about-us/media-center/news/coronavi... If the gas was off prior to covid, I guess you could find yourself in a catch-22, where you'd need to bring the account current before they turned it on, but then they aren't shutting it off at this point. It's unclear if he fought the fine with the city. If this gets to court, I'm pretty sure he would have a cut and dry case that he as the landlord did not breach habitability (the gas worked) and that it was tenant misconduct (failure to pay the bill) that caused the gas to be shut off (https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/RPP/235-B https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/RPP/235-B) Now, I have no clue what kind of ruling the judge would make, but yeah. Additionally, the covid laws that are protecting from eviction are also enabling mortgage forbearance: https://www.dfs.ny.gov/consumers/coronavirus/mortgage https://www.dfs.ny.gov/consumers/coronavirus/mortgage I haven't had to go through that process, so I'm not sure how many people are denied, but the wording on this page makes it seem like you have a few options (including complaining to the state -- like his tenant did for the gas bill) before you are out of luck. I feel for this guy, and as someone who intends to rent to a tenant in NYC this is scary, but I feel like my guy got way over leveraged, and because of it, this bad actor has hung him out to dry. There are a few pieces of this story that feel like they are left out to garner sympathy, which may or may not be warranted. - why is he not getting or eligible for mortgage forbearance? - why is he so over leveraged? - why didn't he negotiate with his tenant about the relocation fee? (get the tenant to sign a paper, give the 10k (or less) as a rent credit on back-owed rent, get them out.) ------ Hilariously, I had a similar situation happen to me as a roommate -- One of the roommates I lived with stopped paying rent, wanted to AirBnB their room, and sleep on the couch, while using the AirBnB money to pay rent. They were few months behind on their portion of the rent, we worked with the landord, and the landlord agreed to credit back rent to get them out. Covid makes this more complex, but those with mortgages should be getting some protection based on the way the law is written. If he's not able to I think thats the real story and much more interesting.
  - candybar 6y ago
    The leverage doesn't have to be high - the only reasonable conclusion you could make is that the owner doesn't have a lot of cash savings outside of his properties and likely doesn't make that much money from his job (in relation to the losses incurred). Alternatively, he may just be cheap and also trying to make a point. Even if he owns his properties outright, tax and maintenance aren't free and not everyone can afford to lose money from their income-yielding properties.
CryptoPunk 6y ago
The bigger problem is lack of understanding of basic economics. The investments into real estate made by those fat cat landlords are good for housing affordability, because they increase the stock of livable housing. The motives and stature of the investor are orthogonal to the effects of their investment.
sudosysgen 6y ago
From the point of view of the greater economy it's not helpful to have people buy property (and thus increase property prices by creating demand) to just rent it back out. It's only helpful if they are helping increase the quantity of housing or somehow providing some other kind of service. Simply using rent to pay the mortgage is really not something that we as a people benefit from. It would be better for everyone if that immigrant in Queens invested their savings into something else that would provide value.
- jshaqaw 6y ago
  I’m a renter. I like being a renter. If nobody owned properties to rent who would I rent from?
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    There are a lot of people to rent from that don't use that money to directly pay their mortgage.
    - candybar 6y ago
      How does that relate to your assertion that people buying a place and renting it out do not add any value?
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        There are a lot of places to rent out that are already outright owned, and there are a lot of places where buildings can be built to be rented out, thus increasing supply. People getting a mortgage and renting out the mortgage adds systemic risk without increasing supply, it doesn't provide any service that isn't provided otherwise.
        candybar 6y ago
        If a building is built to be rented out, does the builder typically rent out the place? No, it will be someone who buys the building, typically with large amounts of borrowed money, who will then rent out the place. Builders build (often also with borrowed money) because they can then sell the building to someone who can buy. This is all part of the economy. And you're certainly misusing the term "systemic risk" here - a small-time landlord borrowing money to buy a rental does not in any sense contribute to any kind of systemic risk. They are taking on personal risk in the hope of generating a return on their investment.
alisonkisk 6y ago
That problem can by solved by selling the equity and charging a fee for property maintenance.

by ng12 6y ago

diebeforei485 6y ago

Perhaps the state (or the city) can have some sort of program like tax relief for low-income landlords who were affected by this.

lbotos 6y ago
This story seems like someone who is extremely over leveraged: - two properties (neither owned outright) - tesla I'm saying this as someone who is about to be 5x leveraged on a 2 fam property in NYC. What kind of leverage does this guy have 10x? 12x? More? In NYC, CONED is not shutting off gas for non payment due to covid: https://www.coned.com/en/about-us/media-center/news/coronavirus/updates https://www.coned.com/en/about-us/media-center/news/coronavi... If the gas was off prior to covid, I guess you could find yourself in a catch-22, where you'd need to bring the account current before they turned it on, but then they aren't shutting it off at this point. It's unclear if he fought the fine with the city. If this gets to court, I'm pretty sure he would have a cut and dry case that he as the landlord did not breach habitability (the gas worked) and that it was tenant misconduct (failure to pay the bill) that caused the gas to be shut off (https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/RPP/235-B https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/RPP/235-B) Now, I have no clue what kind of ruling the judge would make, but yeah. Additionally, the covid laws that are protecting from eviction are also enabling mortgage forbearance: https://www.dfs.ny.gov/consumers/coronavirus/mortgage https://www.dfs.ny.gov/consumers/coronavirus/mortgage I haven't had to go through that process, so I'm not sure how many people are denied, but the wording on this page makes it seem like you have a few options (including complaining to the state -- like his tenant did for the gas bill) before you are out of luck. I feel for this guy, and as someone who intends to rent to a tenant in NYC this is scary, but I feel like my guy got way over leveraged, and because of it, this bad actor has hung him out to dry. There are a few pieces of this story that feel like they are left out to garner sympathy, which may or may not be warranted. - why is he not getting or eligible for mortgage forbearance? - why is he so over leveraged? - why didn't he negotiate with his tenant about the relocation fee? (get the tenant to sign a paper, give the 10k (or less) as a rent credit on back-owed rent, get them out.) ------ Hilariously, I had a similar situation happen to me as a roommate -- One of the roommates I lived with stopped paying rent, wanted to AirBnB their room, and sleep on the couch, while using the AirBnB money to pay rent. They were few months behind on their portion of the rent, we worked with the landord, and the landlord agreed to credit back rent to get them out. Covid makes this more complex, but those with mortgages should be getting some protection based on the way the law is written. If he's not able to I think thats the real story and much more interesting.
- candybar 6y ago
  The leverage doesn't have to be high - the only reasonable conclusion you could make is that the owner doesn't have a lot of cash savings outside of his properties and likely doesn't make that much money from his job (in relation to the losses incurred). Alternatively, he may just be cheap and also trying to make a point. Even if he owns his properties outright, tax and maintenance aren't free and not everyone can afford to lose money from their income-yielding properties.

CryptoPunk 6y ago

The bigger problem is lack of understanding of basic economics. The investments into real estate made by those fat cat landlords are good for housing affordability, because they increase the stock of livable housing. The motives and stature of the investor are orthogonal to the effects of their investment.

sudosysgen 6y ago

From the point of view of the greater economy it's not helpful to have people buy property (and thus increase property prices by creating demand) to just rent it back out. It's only helpful if they are helping increase the quantity of housing or somehow providing some other kind of service. Simply using rent to pay the mortgage is really not something that we as a people benefit from. It would be better for everyone if that immigrant in Queens invested their savings into something else that would provide value.

jshaqaw 6y ago
I’m a renter. I like being a renter. If nobody owned properties to rent who would I rent from?
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  There are a lot of people to rent from that don't use that money to directly pay their mortgage.
  - candybar 6y ago
    How does that relate to your assertion that people buying a place and renting it out do not add any value?
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      There are a lot of places to rent out that are already outright owned, and there are a lot of places where buildings can be built to be rented out, thus increasing supply. People getting a mortgage and renting out the mortgage adds systemic risk without increasing supply, it doesn't provide any service that isn't provided otherwise.
      - candybar 6y ago
        If a building is built to be rented out, does the builder typically rent out the place? No, it will be someone who buys the building, typically with large amounts of borrowed money, who will then rent out the place. Builders build (often also with borrowed money) because they can then sell the building to someone who can buy. This is all part of the economy. And you're certainly misusing the term "systemic risk" here - a small-time landlord borrowing money to buy a rental does not in any sense contribute to any kind of systemic risk. They are taking on personal risk in the hope of generating a return on their investment.

alisonkisk 6y ago

That problem can by solved by selling the equity and charging a fee for property maintenance.