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If you're interesting in learning more, Scott Alexander recently discussed research on this topic with a lot of links to papers: https://astralcodexten.substack

If you're interesting in learning more, Scott Alexander recently discussed research on this topic with a lot of links to papers: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/sleep-is-the-mate-of-death https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/sleep-is-the-mate-of-d... >But forget the practical side of this for now. It looks like sleep is somehow renewing these people's depressions. As if depression is caused by some injury during sleep, heals part of the way during an average day (or all the way during an extra-long day of sleep deprivation) and then the same injury gets re-inflicted during sleep the next night.

taeric 6y ago
With that phrasing, I can't but muse that it is not the sleep that causes issues, but the "starting fresh" in the morning. Hypothesis being that something about a well rested mind lets a waking person check off more of a list of things to consider first thing in the morning.
- kiba 6y ago
  I have depression/anxiety and procrastination issue in the morning. It gets better especially once I decided to do something for the day. Then it's all momentum all the way.
  - sn41 6y ago
    Making a timetable for the next day helps, I have found. The downside is that I tend to say no to anything that deviates from the timetable.
    - pope_meat 6y ago
      this is so relatable. it takes so much effort to commit to any sort of plan in the first place, and then life circumstances happen and the plan has to change, and I'm left completely defeated by that development. this sucks.
    - Shugarl 6y ago
      I had a similar issue, and I found a solution : Rather than aiming to follow my plan, I aim to do a predetermined amount of tasks (25 in my cases), regardless of whether or not they are in my schedule. I use an app to keep track of the amount of tasks done, and it has been surprisingly effective!
      - yellowapple 6y ago
        Which app? Definitely curious if it'll help with my own procrastination (and possibly undiagnosed depression). The last time I made some headway on why I seem to endlessly procrastinate (said headway being enabled by, er, "self medication"), I came to the conclusion that it's because my brain sees a whole bunch of things to do, and instead of taking the rational approach of "well take things one at a time", it instead gets into a whirlwind of indecision, panics under the stress of all these things to do, and immediately starts reaching for an escape, thus compounding the problem. In the "self medicated" state my brain was more able to get into a groove of "okay, do $N more things" and actually make some headway, but only until the nausea caught up to me (at which point I had to force myself to call it a day). My hope is that it's just a matter of tooling, and that a better toolset will help me get out of ruts without needing to rely on mind-altering substances.
        Shugarl 6y ago
        I just downloaded one of the first apps that I found on the Google Play Store when I searched for "incrementor". I think any app where a number goes up when you press a button will do the trick.
        dwaltrip 6y ago
        My understanding is that procrastination most commonly stems from emotional disregulation. I’ve definitely experienced that myself.
      - dageshi 6y ago
        I wish something like that would work for me. I would immediately begin to analyse what counts as a task. I'd set myself tasks, realise they're much more difficult than I thought they were and realise there's no way for me to complete this task and also hit my 25 goal. Then I'd get frustrated with myself and probably go surf reddit for the rest of the day. No system of any type has worked for me consistently.
    - intricatedetail 6y ago
      Any sort of table, plan or a roadmap makes me more depressed, because I cannot stick to it and that amplifies feeling of guilt. Best results I had when my plan was to do just one thing, even if it was only one line of code throughout the day and even doing nothing at all I had coded as doing resting. I had incredible progress with this approach.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dazc 6y ago
    Is it possible for you to have something already planned the previous day?
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  That might play a role, but sleep deprivation is also a trigger for hypomanic or even manic episodes in bipolar patients. There's something about sleep deprivation that alters mood in certain mental disorders.
  - andai 6y ago
    Based on my experience I figure the "reasoning" behind this mechanism is that if my anxiety is bad enough to be keeping me awake, I clearly need more energy to deal with my problems (and, graciously, it is provided).
  - hnick 6y ago
    Interesting, I've noticed for a while if I have a late night the next day I'll often be extremely energetic and more social than normal. The crash comes the day after.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  I've had panic attacks during loosely-structured periods in my life where sitting in the shower after waking up in the morning and having to decide what to do with that day was absolutely overwhelming. Sometimes when you have a lot going on and you're under a lot of stress there's a lot of pressure associated with deciding how best to allocate your time. In contrast, I find a relative peace at 3am, since it's merely a continuation of what I had been doing earlier that day. I'm in a groove, and there's no major decisions to make regarding my resource allocation. Waking up is absolutely one of my least favorite parts of the day. It comes with a tremendous burden, especially when living alone and not having a fixed schedule or a boss.
  - tarsinge 6y ago
    I’m glad if you feel better know. It’s interesting to know oneself because I have exactly the opposite experience. The more the day pass the more I am stressed, with sometimes panic attacks before sleep. I feel refreshed in the morning, the best part of the day for me. The exception is when I have a fixed schedule, a boss (also a long commute and a job I don’t like), then sure I don’t like waking up, because I know exactly what the day will be without surprise and it’s shitty.
    - phobosanomaly 6y ago
      Out of curiosity, what is it that gets you before you go to sleep? What is running through your mind when you experience the panic attack? (I mean, not specifics, but in a general sense.)
      - tarsinge 6y ago
        I think it’s general anxiety from the accumulated “thinking fatigue” during the day. There is a correlation with periods where I lacked a clear plan and spent too much time of the day in my thought planning the future. The process at sleep then is something like I feel tense -> I become hypersensible -> I notice each heartbeat accelerating -> maybe something is wrong -> ... Sometimes it was more sudden like waking up panicked in the middle of the night. Meditation helped because now I notice when I loose myself too much in my thought. The effect is not immediate but it makes a difference at the end of the day.
- tgv 6y ago
  I can't help thinking that Scott Alexander has no clue what he's talking about, or more more benevolently, is writing quasi-poetic nonsense. Which is bad for someone with that many followers. I can give another off-the-cuff alternative: sleep deprivation reduces self-awareness, and thus self-report of depressed feelings. It might be that at this point the "brain" is more susceptible to treatment, but that's an entirely different matter.
  - mckirk 6y ago
    He's a psychiatrist and generally researches everything he writes about quite thoroughly, so I'd be surprised if he had no clue what he's talking about in this case.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    If you're going to say someone is talking nonsense, maybe back it up with specific reasons how and why. (Not necccesarily saying he isn't, just without specifics we might as well just be calling people names)
    - taklamundak 6y ago
      Good job
  - herbst 6y ago
    I dont know this guy. But his idea definitly works for me. The effect lasts longer than a day so i would argue its not the sleep deprevation itself
    - webmaven 6y ago
      > I dont know this guy. But his idea definitly works for me. The effect lasts longer than a day so i would argue its not the sleep deprevation itself It is generally accepted that the negative effects of sleep deprivation last longer than a day too. If you are sleep deprived you can't 'catch up' by sleeping in for a night or two (for example on the weekend).
  - 6y ago

taeric 6y ago

With that phrasing, I can't but muse that it is not the sleep that causes issues, but the "starting fresh" in the morning. Hypothesis being that something about a well rested mind lets a waking person check off more of a list of things to consider first thing in the morning.

kiba 6y ago
I have depression/anxiety and procrastination issue in the morning. It gets better especially once I decided to do something for the day. Then it's all momentum all the way.
- sn41 6y ago
  Making a timetable for the next day helps, I have found. The downside is that I tend to say no to anything that deviates from the timetable.
  - pope_meat 6y ago
    this is so relatable. it takes so much effort to commit to any sort of plan in the first place, and then life circumstances happen and the plan has to change, and I'm left completely defeated by that development. this sucks.
  - Shugarl 6y ago
    I had a similar issue, and I found a solution : Rather than aiming to follow my plan, I aim to do a predetermined amount of tasks (25 in my cases), regardless of whether or not they are in my schedule. I use an app to keep track of the amount of tasks done, and it has been surprisingly effective!
    - yellowapple 6y ago
      Which app? Definitely curious if it'll help with my own procrastination (and possibly undiagnosed depression). The last time I made some headway on why I seem to endlessly procrastinate (said headway being enabled by, er, "self medication"), I came to the conclusion that it's because my brain sees a whole bunch of things to do, and instead of taking the rational approach of "well take things one at a time", it instead gets into a whirlwind of indecision, panics under the stress of all these things to do, and immediately starts reaching for an escape, thus compounding the problem. In the "self medicated" state my brain was more able to get into a groove of "okay, do $N more things" and actually make some headway, but only until the nausea caught up to me (at which point I had to force myself to call it a day). My hope is that it's just a matter of tooling, and that a better toolset will help me get out of ruts without needing to rely on mind-altering substances.
      - Shugarl 6y ago
        I just downloaded one of the first apps that I found on the Google Play Store when I searched for "incrementor". I think any app where a number goes up when you press a button will do the trick.
      - dwaltrip 6y ago
        My understanding is that procrastination most commonly stems from emotional disregulation. I’ve definitely experienced that myself.
    - dageshi 6y ago
      I wish something like that would work for me. I would immediately begin to analyse what counts as a task. I'd set myself tasks, realise they're much more difficult than I thought they were and realise there's no way for me to complete this task and also hit my 25 goal. Then I'd get frustrated with myself and probably go surf reddit for the rest of the day. No system of any type has worked for me consistently.
  - intricatedetail 6y ago
    Any sort of table, plan or a roadmap makes me more depressed, because I cannot stick to it and that amplifies feeling of guilt. Best results I had when my plan was to do just one thing, even if it was only one line of code throughout the day and even doing nothing at all I had coded as doing resting. I had incredible progress with this approach.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dazc 6y ago
  Is it possible for you to have something already planned the previous day?
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
That might play a role, but sleep deprivation is also a trigger for hypomanic or even manic episodes in bipolar patients. There's something about sleep deprivation that alters mood in certain mental disorders.
- andai 6y ago
  Based on my experience I figure the "reasoning" behind this mechanism is that if my anxiety is bad enough to be keeping me awake, I clearly need more energy to deal with my problems (and, graciously, it is provided).
- hnick 6y ago
  Interesting, I've noticed for a while if I have a late night the next day I'll often be extremely energetic and more social than normal. The crash comes the day after.
phobosanomaly 6y ago
I've had panic attacks during loosely-structured periods in my life where sitting in the shower after waking up in the morning and having to decide what to do with that day was absolutely overwhelming. Sometimes when you have a lot going on and you're under a lot of stress there's a lot of pressure associated with deciding how best to allocate your time. In contrast, I find a relative peace at 3am, since it's merely a continuation of what I had been doing earlier that day. I'm in a groove, and there's no major decisions to make regarding my resource allocation. Waking up is absolutely one of my least favorite parts of the day. It comes with a tremendous burden, especially when living alone and not having a fixed schedule or a boss.
- tarsinge 6y ago
  I’m glad if you feel better know. It’s interesting to know oneself because I have exactly the opposite experience. The more the day pass the more I am stressed, with sometimes panic attacks before sleep. I feel refreshed in the morning, the best part of the day for me. The exception is when I have a fixed schedule, a boss (also a long commute and a job I don’t like), then sure I don’t like waking up, because I know exactly what the day will be without surprise and it’s shitty.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    Out of curiosity, what is it that gets you before you go to sleep? What is running through your mind when you experience the panic attack? (I mean, not specifics, but in a general sense.)
    - tarsinge 6y ago
      I think it’s general anxiety from the accumulated “thinking fatigue” during the day. There is a correlation with periods where I lacked a clear plan and spent too much time of the day in my thought planning the future. The process at sleep then is something like I feel tense -> I become hypersensible -> I notice each heartbeat accelerating -> maybe something is wrong -> ... Sometimes it was more sudden like waking up panicked in the middle of the night. Meditation helped because now I notice when I loose myself too much in my thought. The effect is not immediate but it makes a difference at the end of the day.
tgv 6y ago
I can't help thinking that Scott Alexander has no clue what he's talking about, or more more benevolently, is writing quasi-poetic nonsense. Which is bad for someone with that many followers. I can give another off-the-cuff alternative: sleep deprivation reduces self-awareness, and thus self-report of depressed feelings. It might be that at this point the "brain" is more susceptible to treatment, but that's an entirely different matter.
- mckirk 6y ago
  He's a psychiatrist and generally researches everything he writes about quite thoroughly, so I'd be surprised if he had no clue what he's talking about in this case.
- bawolff 6y ago
  If you're going to say someone is talking nonsense, maybe back it up with specific reasons how and why. (Not necccesarily saying he isn't, just without specifics we might as well just be calling people names)
  - taklamundak 6y ago
    Good job
- herbst 6y ago
  I dont know this guy. But his idea definitly works for me. The effect lasts longer than a day so i would argue its not the sleep deprevation itself
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > I dont know this guy. But his idea definitly works for me. The effect lasts longer than a day so i would argue its not the sleep deprevation itself It is generally accepted that the negative effects of sleep deprivation last longer than a day too. If you are sleep deprived you can't 'catch up' by sleeping in for a night or two (for example on the weekend).
- 6y ago