5 ms·

As usual, an over–generalization. Some places are like that, others are not. I myself live in a place that has both good access to the interstate for visits to

by db48x 6y ago

As usual, an over–generalization. Some places are like that, others are not. I myself live in a place that has both good access to the interstate for visits to neighboring towns, and is extremely walkable. There are two grocery stores within half a mile, more than a dozen restaurants, lots of other types of stores, office buildings, etc. It’s not perfect though; it could do with more apartment buildings in amongst the restaurants in my opinion. Still, I generally agree that the permitting process in many places is ridiculous, especially in big cities. But many people do want to live in a house with a yard; it’s not like the government is forcing people to do so.

Sebguer 6y ago
How much is your rent? Because, as OP mentioned: >they're revitalizing as lifestyle areas that are very expensive to live in.
- db48x 6y ago
  More expensive than some, not as expensive as others.
burlesona 6y ago
The government is literally forcing them in the case of virtually all new residential development. In most places it is illegal to have lots under 5000 square feet or more than one family on a lot (no duplexes etc). In many places the lot size restrictions are even more extreme, requiring 10-20k sqft per lot. Almost every inch of the US and Canada has a litany of rules saying that buildings have to be 20’ or more set back from the street and have to leave 5-10’ on each side clear on the sides and rear. Usually they are limited to two stories and in some cases only one. A lot of places take this further with rules on how much of your house has to be brick, or what color the roof can be etc. And since that’s still not enough to please some people’s desire for perfect conformity, most modern homes layer on top of this special HOA rules, for example restricting what kind of window shades are acceptable and how tall and green your grass most be. These rules are enforced by the local municipality and backed by the force of the police. I have no doubt that there are many people who like single family housing and would buy designs like the common cookie cutter standard if it was part of a truly free market menu, but how much genuine demand exists we will never know, because virtually nothing else is legal and it hasn’t been for two generations now! People generally don’t “want” things they’ve never experienced and have no access to. Just to drive this point home, imagine we passed a law saying that people were only allowed to eat seafood of certain dimensions and without tentacles. Fish, shrimp, and lobster between 1-7 lbs are OK. No squid or octopus. You can cook them however you want, except no grilled salmon is allowed in Vermont. Any other food requires years of community hearings to acquire one-off conditional approvals on a meal by meal basis. Would you find plenty of people who liked seafood and defended this system? Yes. Would you know anything about people’s true preferences if they were allowed to be omnivores? No. That’s what our world has been reduced to, and it’s the product of an almost unfathomably deep and Byzantine regulatory complex by which the government micromanages the built environment around us.
- db48x 6y ago
  I agree that there are problems, but there’s still plenty of room to start new towns with better rules. Although certainly it varies, I believe that the process is to get enough people to move to an area and then agree to form a town together. And the rules in existing areas can be changed too, if you prefer. Just get a group of like–minded people to all move to the same area. Also, I suspect that there are more towns out there that are dense and walkable than you realize, and more HOAs that are useful and reasonable (and that therefore never make the news) than there are terrible ones. The one my parents are in seems to have been run entirely without drama for decades; it just cleans the community pool and mows the median of the central avenue and replaces the sign at the front of the neighborhood every so often. A few years back a contractor replacing a culvert caused a flood and damaged a street and some houses; I’m not sure if the HOA hired them or the city did. Either way, the road was repaired and the pond refilled, and this is the most dramatic thing that’s ever happened in the area.
- switch007 6y ago
  I’m sorry, the height of your grass is actually policed, by the police?!
  - db48x 6y ago
    He is being a little hyperbolic there. If you are a member of an HOA, and the HOA votes in a rule governing the height of your grass, then the HOA can enforce the rule with fines. If you don’t pay the fines, the HOA can put a lien on your house. It would be quite odd for the police to be involved at any point. A lien just means that the house cannot be sold without paying the lien holder. Liens are actually quite common; any house bought with a mortgage also has a lien put on it for the balance of the loan. This forces you to pay off the loan if you sell the house. If the house is put up for auction due to a foreclosure, I think a lien holder could recover their money from the sale price, or even gain ownership of the property. At that point the police might be involved in order to evict the former owner. But the HOA’s lien cannot cause a foreclosure, I think. That requires either defaulting on your mortgage, or a tax lien put on it by a municipality, state, etc. Honestly, a town or city could make ridiculous rules about the length of your grass as well, and you would have just as much trouble or more. There are certainly enough horror stories told about HOAs to make a person wary of them. If all they do is manage property owned in common by the residents, then they’re usually fine. When properly run they are the most boring type of government ever invented. All they have to do is clean the pool regularly, mow the grass from time to time, or save up enough to buy a new roof for the building every couple of decades. Meanwhile the city you live in probably sold hundreds of millions of dollars in bonds to buy a new football stadium, which earns hundreds of millions in yearly revenue. Naturally, they gave the owner of the stadium all that money and a tax break to boot, just to attract them to the area. Sales taxes went up a bit because of the increased tourism, but not enough to cover the bond payments, so your property taxes probably went up too. The mayor’s cousin’s construction company made a pretty penny building parts of the stadium, and his wife earned a bundle as a motivational speaker giving talks at conventions funded by the company that sells the concessions. Which is worse? Certainly you always need to keep on top of what your HOA is doing, but you can’t ignore what your town is doing either.

by db48x 6y ago

Sebguer 6y ago

How much is your rent? Because, as OP mentioned: >they're revitalizing as lifestyle areas that are very expensive to live in.

db48x 6y ago
More expensive than some, not as expensive as others.

burlesona 6y ago

The government is literally forcing them in the case of virtually all new residential development. In most places it is illegal to have lots under 5000 square feet or more than one family on a lot (no duplexes etc). In many places the lot size restrictions are even more extreme, requiring 10-20k sqft per lot. Almost every inch of the US and Canada has a litany of rules saying that buildings have to be 20’ or more set back from the street and have to leave 5-10’ on each side clear on the sides and rear. Usually they are limited to two stories and in some cases only one. A lot of places take this further with rules on how much of your house has to be brick, or what color the roof can be etc. And since that’s still not enough to please some people’s desire for perfect conformity, most modern homes layer on top of this special HOA rules, for example restricting what kind of window shades are acceptable and how tall and green your grass most be. These rules are enforced by the local municipality and backed by the force of the police. I have no doubt that there are many people who like single family housing and would buy designs like the common cookie cutter standard if it was part of a truly free market menu, but how much genuine demand exists we will never know, because virtually nothing else is legal and it hasn’t been for two generations now! People generally don’t “want” things they’ve never experienced and have no access to. Just to drive this point home, imagine we passed a law saying that people were only allowed to eat seafood of certain dimensions and without tentacles. Fish, shrimp, and lobster between 1-7 lbs are OK. No squid or octopus. You can cook them however you want, except no grilled salmon is allowed in Vermont. Any other food requires years of community hearings to acquire one-off conditional approvals on a meal by meal basis. Would you find plenty of people who liked seafood and defended this system? Yes. Would you know anything about people’s true preferences if they were allowed to be omnivores? No. That’s what our world has been reduced to, and it’s the product of an almost unfathomably deep and Byzantine regulatory complex by which the government micromanages the built environment around us.

db48x 6y ago
I agree that there are problems, but there’s still plenty of room to start new towns with better rules. Although certainly it varies, I believe that the process is to get enough people to move to an area and then agree to form a town together. And the rules in existing areas can be changed too, if you prefer. Just get a group of like–minded people to all move to the same area. Also, I suspect that there are more towns out there that are dense and walkable than you realize, and more HOAs that are useful and reasonable (and that therefore never make the news) than there are terrible ones. The one my parents are in seems to have been run entirely without drama for decades; it just cleans the community pool and mows the median of the central avenue and replaces the sign at the front of the neighborhood every so often. A few years back a contractor replacing a culvert caused a flood and damaged a street and some houses; I’m not sure if the HOA hired them or the city did. Either way, the road was repaired and the pond refilled, and this is the most dramatic thing that’s ever happened in the area.
switch007 6y ago
I’m sorry, the height of your grass is actually policed, by the police?!
- db48x 6y ago
  He is being a little hyperbolic there. If you are a member of an HOA, and the HOA votes in a rule governing the height of your grass, then the HOA can enforce the rule with fines. If you don’t pay the fines, the HOA can put a lien on your house. It would be quite odd for the police to be involved at any point. A lien just means that the house cannot be sold without paying the lien holder. Liens are actually quite common; any house bought with a mortgage also has a lien put on it for the balance of the loan. This forces you to pay off the loan if you sell the house. If the house is put up for auction due to a foreclosure, I think a lien holder could recover their money from the sale price, or even gain ownership of the property. At that point the police might be involved in order to evict the former owner. But the HOA’s lien cannot cause a foreclosure, I think. That requires either defaulting on your mortgage, or a tax lien put on it by a municipality, state, etc. Honestly, a town or city could make ridiculous rules about the length of your grass as well, and you would have just as much trouble or more. There are certainly enough horror stories told about HOAs to make a person wary of them. If all they do is manage property owned in common by the residents, then they’re usually fine. When properly run they are the most boring type of government ever invented. All they have to do is clean the pool regularly, mow the grass from time to time, or save up enough to buy a new roof for the building every couple of decades. Meanwhile the city you live in probably sold hundreds of millions of dollars in bonds to buy a new football stadium, which earns hundreds of millions in yearly revenue. Naturally, they gave the owner of the stadium all that money and a tax break to boot, just to attract them to the area. Sales taxes went up a bit because of the increased tourism, but not enough to cover the bond payments, so your property taxes probably went up too. The mayor’s cousin’s construction company made a pretty penny building parts of the stadium, and his wife earned a bundle as a motivational speaker giving talks at conventions funded by the company that sells the concessions. Which is worse? Certainly you always need to keep on top of what your HOA is doing, but you can’t ignore what your town is doing either.