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I find it hard to believe that ancient creatures that have lived through this many times in history are somehow unable to do it again. The temperature estimate

I find it hard to believe that ancient creatures that have lived through this many times in history are somehow unable to do it again. The temperature estimates in the article do not eclipse highs in fairly recent history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_periods_and_events_in_climate_history#/media/File:Vostok_Petit_data.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_periods_and_events_in_... Nor does the rate of change exceed that of what the earth experienced as recently as 8k years before present. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene#/media/File:North-western_European_Holocene_Climate_Proxies_and_Culture_Stages,_by_Hans_J.J.G._Holm.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene#/media/File:North-wes...

hillbillydilly 6y ago
low effort climate denialism posts- oversimplified, pedantic and contrarian, for what? "Oceans Acidifying Faster Today Than in Past 300 Million Years" https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=123324 https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=123324 seriously two clicks.
- ghastmaster 6y ago
  Please use full sentences and reply to my argument or observation, not my intention. It took me a minute to decipher what exactly you were saying because your reply was not clear. Key points from your link: > About 56 million years ago, a mysterious surge of carbon into the atmosphere warmed the planet and turned the oceans corrosive. In about 5,000 years, atmospheric carbon doubled to 1,800 parts per million (ppm), and average global temperatures rose by about 6 degrees Celsius. > In the last hundred years, rising carbon dioxide from human activities has lowered ocean pH by 0.1 unit, an acidification rate at least 10 times faster than 56 million years ago, says Hönisch. What I cannot figure out is why if OA and global temps are dependent on atmospheric CO2, why has there not been major die offs in recent history(particularly 8k years before present. It seems to be that OA is particularly hard to study.
prezjordan 6y ago
The creatures have, the reef has not.
npunt 6y ago
This article implies temperature is the culprit but I was under the impression the problem is more ocean acidification caused by co2, which happens to also cause temperature rise. While temperatures have fluctuated over the millennia, the last time co2 was this high (400+ppm) was maybe 30 million years ago: https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ Another thing to remember is the tendency for us to compress all of history in a very short period of time, so arguments that are about 'oh x species will evolve' are more on the timescale of 1000s-10000s of years at least. Thus what we lose today are likely to never be seen again by us or any of our ancestors who understand our way of life. If enough of these events happen they can compound and lead to ecological collapse which may permanently affect life on earth and earth's ability to sustain life.
- ghastmaster 6y ago
  The prevailing theory is that ocean acidification (OA) and global temperature are tied to atmospheric CO2 levels(as illustrated in image 1 in my OP). Given that relationship, any historical change in one would correspond to a change in the other.
  - npunt 6y ago
    Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see anything about ocean acidification in those links, only temp/CO2 correlation, and the chart of ice core data only goes up to 280ppm CO2. Since we’re at 420 now yet we have had temperatures this high before, maybe that historic relationship can’t be relied upon (as humans weren’t there the last time) and another explanation is required? See sibling comment re rate of change and time lag for species to adapt.
belorn 6y ago
It is not the peak temperature that is the problem, but the speed for which the temperature is rising. Adaptation need time, especially for symbiotic relationships. The reason that the coral is dying is because the sharp increase in temperature is mimicking that of an disease, and the incorrect reaction causes the coral to self-die. It actually a bit similar to how a virus in an pandemic can become deadly to humans because it cause the immune system of the host to go into hyper drive. The virus itself can be rather minor, and the immune system reaction under normal circumstances would be pretty harmless, but an incorrect reaction results in death. Inflammation can be a great tool to combat a virus, but too much inflammation in the lungs can cause acute respiratory distress resulting in death.
hadlock 6y ago
To add to this, "coral reef bleaching" is not a coral reef die-off event, it means that the colorful symbiotic alge that coexist with the coral (many corals are a lot like flamingos, they are themselves generally colorless, but other factors in their environment cause notable color) have left the coral that make up the reef, leaving it white. The coral it self (an animal by definition, not an algae) is still alive, although stressed, in a bleaching event. Reefs see bleaching happen on an annual basis, and extended bleaching can cause a die-off (the algae produces additional food for the coral) but the concept that hot water -> dead coral is, perhaps, not a direct impact. There's a couple of books by prominent marine biologists on this topic, that annual bleaching happens both in warm water and cold water corals. I'll dig up the citations if there's enough interest. That said, no comment on acidification, that is a different topic and I don't have any factoids on that
zackbloom 6y ago
It's important to understand that there were many extinction events throughout the history of the earth. Just in the world of Foraminifera there were at least seven catastrophic events which wiped out all or most of entire genetic lines. Some do survive, and over millions of years they can repopulate areas, but the resurrection will not happen one one hundredth as quickly as the destruction does, and it very well may not look anything like what exists now.

hillbillydilly 6y ago

low effort climate denialism posts- oversimplified, pedantic and contrarian, for what? "Oceans Acidifying Faster Today Than in Past 300 Million Years" https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=123324 https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=123324 seriously two clicks.

ghastmaster 6y ago
Please use full sentences and reply to my argument or observation, not my intention. It took me a minute to decipher what exactly you were saying because your reply was not clear. Key points from your link: > About 56 million years ago, a mysterious surge of carbon into the atmosphere warmed the planet and turned the oceans corrosive. In about 5,000 years, atmospheric carbon doubled to 1,800 parts per million (ppm), and average global temperatures rose by about 6 degrees Celsius. > In the last hundred years, rising carbon dioxide from human activities has lowered ocean pH by 0.1 unit, an acidification rate at least 10 times faster than 56 million years ago, says Hönisch. What I cannot figure out is why if OA and global temps are dependent on atmospheric CO2, why has there not been major die offs in recent history(particularly 8k years before present. It seems to be that OA is particularly hard to study.

prezjordan 6y ago

The creatures have, the reef has not.

npunt 6y ago

This article implies temperature is the culprit but I was under the impression the problem is more ocean acidification caused by co2, which happens to also cause temperature rise. While temperatures have fluctuated over the millennia, the last time co2 was this high (400+ppm) was maybe 30 million years ago: https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/ Another thing to remember is the tendency for us to compress all of history in a very short period of time, so arguments that are about 'oh x species will evolve' are more on the timescale of 1000s-10000s of years at least. Thus what we lose today are likely to never be seen again by us or any of our ancestors who understand our way of life. If enough of these events happen they can compound and lead to ecological collapse which may permanently affect life on earth and earth's ability to sustain life.

ghastmaster 6y ago
The prevailing theory is that ocean acidification (OA) and global temperature are tied to atmospheric CO2 levels(as illustrated in image 1 in my OP). Given that relationship, any historical change in one would correspond to a change in the other.
- npunt 6y ago
  Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see anything about ocean acidification in those links, only temp/CO2 correlation, and the chart of ice core data only goes up to 280ppm CO2. Since we’re at 420 now yet we have had temperatures this high before, maybe that historic relationship can’t be relied upon (as humans weren’t there the last time) and another explanation is required? See sibling comment re rate of change and time lag for species to adapt.

belorn 6y ago

It is not the peak temperature that is the problem, but the speed for which the temperature is rising. Adaptation need time, especially for symbiotic relationships. The reason that the coral is dying is because the sharp increase in temperature is mimicking that of an disease, and the incorrect reaction causes the coral to self-die. It actually a bit similar to how a virus in an pandemic can become deadly to humans because it cause the immune system of the host to go into hyper drive. The virus itself can be rather minor, and the immune system reaction under normal circumstances would be pretty harmless, but an incorrect reaction results in death. Inflammation can be a great tool to combat a virus, but too much inflammation in the lungs can cause acute respiratory distress resulting in death.

hadlock 6y ago

To add to this, "coral reef bleaching" is not a coral reef die-off event, it means that the colorful symbiotic alge that coexist with the coral (many corals are a lot like flamingos, they are themselves generally colorless, but other factors in their environment cause notable color) have left the coral that make up the reef, leaving it white. The coral it self (an animal by definition, not an algae) is still alive, although stressed, in a bleaching event. Reefs see bleaching happen on an annual basis, and extended bleaching can cause a die-off (the algae produces additional food for the coral) but the concept that hot water -> dead coral is, perhaps, not a direct impact. There's a couple of books by prominent marine biologists on this topic, that annual bleaching happens both in warm water and cold water corals. I'll dig up the citations if there's enough interest. That said, no comment on acidification, that is a different topic and I don't have any factoids on that

zackbloom 6y ago

It's important to understand that there were many extinction events throughout the history of the earth. Just in the world of Foraminifera there were at least seven catastrophic events which wiped out all or most of entire genetic lines. Some do survive, and over millions of years they can repopulate areas, but the resurrection will not happen one one hundredth as quickly as the destruction does, and it very well may not look anything like what exists now.