9 ms·

Student Loans and DOE S.W.A.T. Teams

48 points by billswift 15y ago

jevinskie 15y ago
"...unlike a house, an education cannot be repossessed." Electroshock therapy until the loans are repaid in full? On a more serious note, I had no idea that the DoE has paramilitary forces busting down doors. Why is a polite knock not sufficient? Does it not instill enough fear into other students who are or may default on their loans?
- wvoq 15y ago
  Presumably so students will have no advance warning to flush their diplomas down the toilet.
jamesbkel 15y ago
The article makes a decent (if rather convoluted) point. However, the advertisements and "buy our clothing" section really push it over the edge for me. (in case you haven't seen the site, I'm referring to the content of what is listed above, not the fact there are ads) Not only was it distracting, I can no longer take this article seriously.
lists 15y ago
I'm usually suspicious of state-phobia/"no big government" themes because there's usually a host of prejudices and nasty fallback concepts undergirding things, but as a person struggling with student loan debt (I know, I know, unlike everyone else on the site amirite) this hits home in a big way. But as far as policy debate goes, the university system is a trainwreck of financial demand and is only going to get worse. Maybe Peter we need to do other things than college, but that isn't very responsive to historically sedimented structural inequities (I know, I know, meritocracy is best, etc). A discussion of free schools is underway in Britain, but I feel that presents a chicken-or-the-egg problem. What do we do?
- shareme 15y ago
  Its not a train wreck, is just mired in a bit of Federal-State quirk-ness of the US system at least the public ones. The original basis for not funding EDu in the US was due to a clash between the class of the US congress versus returning long haired Vietnam viets and thus they choose the loan route. We need in the US to end the debate between Fed and State control over the area of college education..if states want control and cannot provide full funding than Fed should not be forced to do so..that thinking got the US with help of banking lobbyists into making exceptions to the Uniform Commercial Code, bankruptcy laws, etc to punish the ones in the middle(the students). If Fed and state govs do not get their act together...it will be student revolt through non-payment.
adammichaelc 15y ago
Can anybody confirm that the DOE really sent a SWAT-like team just to collect on a debt? If this is confirmed, this should be very alarming to us.
- commandar 15y ago
  DoE OIG released a statement saying that they were investigating a criminal fraud case, not unpaid student loans.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    Sigh. I'm tired of the internet, and its nonstop flow of stories which sound outrageous when you read the summary but rapidly sound a bit more sensible when you find out the details.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - kjksf 15y ago
      I'm not sure if sending S.W.A.T.-like team to "investigate" is sensible. The U.S. managed to investigate things by sending detectives for a long time. Other countries seem to manage the policing without the need for equivalent of S.W.A.T. S.W.A.T. teams are equivalent of Special Forces in Army. They are armed with extremely dangerous weapons and highly trained to kill. You're only supposed to send those people when there's a reasonable suspicions of armed resistance, not on routine investigation of white-collar crime, just because you can.
      - hugh3 15y ago
        Maybe it isn't sensible. But it's more sensible. Are there other details which still haven't been revealed? Was the dude a well-known organized crime figure? Was his home bristling with weapons? Had they already tried the sensible "knock on the door" method? I don't know. But I've been bitten enough times by important details left out of the story to make it more sensational that I'm disinclined to get too outraged over things I've read on the internet until I've heard both sides of the story.
DannoHung 15y ago
Why would they give the money directly to the student instead of the educational institution?
- phillmv 15y ago
  You still need to pay rent and eat. Pretty integral parts of any good education, I'd wager.
- orijing 15y ago
  Apparently to give to those who need it more. For example, because my parents had a median Silicon-valley income (which was above the national median), I did not get any financial aid, reasonable financing options, etc. My parents, limited by the mortgage payments to the house they bought in 2007 (bad timing, I know), had very little free cash (I had a little sister). As a result, I had to work for my money while there were supposedly poor classmates running around with Macbook Pros and brand new iPhones and iPads, paid for by their financial aid. (Or rather, they didn't have to pay for living and tuition, so every dollar they earned went into accessories). You can tell I'm a bit bitter about this. I wonder what everyone else thinks. I understand that education should be equal opportunity, but this is not equal opportunity.
  - ohyes 15y ago
    Except those people are all buried in debt from student loans and their extravagant spending. You kind of dodged a bullet there.
    - orijing 15y ago
      Which kind of people? Those receiving financial aid, or those who aren't (like me)?
      - ohyes 15y ago
        Those who took out loans and spent them on macbooks.
pzb 15y ago
Every federal department has an Inspector General and the employees are federal agents authorized to carry firearms and conduct raids. However contrary to the article, the OIG agents, like all other officers, have to get a judge to sign the warrant and approve it for no-knock service. A few examples: NASA OIG: http://oig.nasa.gov/ http://oig.nasa.gov/ USPS Postal Inspectors: https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/ https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/ National Endowment for the Arts: http://www.nea.gov/about/OIG/Contents.html http://www.nea.gov/about/OIG/Contents.html All Inspectors General: http://www.ignet.gov/igs/homepage1.html http://www.ignet.gov/igs/homepage1.html
subway 15y ago
The author's misuse of the acronym DOE is rather distracting -- DOE typically refers to the Department of Energy here in the US. The Department of Education (or Education Department) typically uses "ED".
- yaix 15y ago
  Thanks. I was wondering how many US gov departments were using the same initial.
thesis 15y ago
In my opinion if they were investigating fraud then the raid was reasonable. The no knock warrant seems like a bit of a stretch though. What were they going to do? Flush the money down the toilet? If it was just over defaulted loans, then hopefully the DOE put liens and levys where they could prior.
iskander 15y ago
>The most likely crime being investigated is student aid fraud, which is an immense problem especially at inner-city colleges. Because of the ease of obtaining government grants and loans, students can register for different programs under multiple names and Social Security numbers. Worth noting: this stuff happens mostly w/ public institutions, since the private ones are under harsher guidelines and a lot more scrutiny.
- smashing 15y ago
  What harsher guidelines? Do you have a citation for this? I would think the much greater number of students who attend public schools would also correlate to greater instances of fraud. There is no mention of any relation as a percentage.
  - iskander 15y ago
    I learned the above by speaking with employees at a private for-profit school, but when I went looking for supporting evidence I found I've been somewhat misinformed. The private school loan default rates are much worse than public schools: http://www.quickanded.com/2010/09/repayment-rates-vs-cdrs.html http://www.quickanded.com/2010/09/repayment-rates-vs-cdrs.ht...

48 points by billswift 15y ago

"...unlike a house, an education cannot be repossessed." Electroshock therapy until the loans are repaid in full? On a more serious note, I had no idea that the DoE has paramilitary forces busting down doors. Why is a polite knock not sufficient? Does it not instill enough fear into other students who are or may default on their loans?

wvoq 15y ago
Presumably so students will have no advance warning to flush their diplomas down the toilet.

jamesbkel 15y ago

The article makes a decent (if rather convoluted) point. However, the advertisements and "buy our clothing" section really push it over the edge for me. (in case you haven't seen the site, I'm referring to the content of what is listed above, not the fact there are ads) Not only was it distracting, I can no longer take this article seriously.

lists 15y ago

I'm usually suspicious of state-phobia/"no big government" themes because there's usually a host of prejudices and nasty fallback concepts undergirding things, but as a person struggling with student loan debt (I know, I know, unlike everyone else on the site amirite) this hits home in a big way. But as far as policy debate goes, the university system is a trainwreck of financial demand and is only going to get worse. Maybe Peter we need to do other things than college, but that isn't very responsive to historically sedimented structural inequities (I know, I know, meritocracy is best, etc). A discussion of free schools is underway in Britain, but I feel that presents a chicken-or-the-egg problem. What do we do?

shareme 15y ago
Its not a train wreck, is just mired in a bit of Federal-State quirk-ness of the US system at least the public ones. The original basis for not funding EDu in the US was due to a clash between the class of the US congress versus returning long haired Vietnam viets and thus they choose the loan route. We need in the US to end the debate between Fed and State control over the area of college education..if states want control and cannot provide full funding than Fed should not be forced to do so..that thinking got the US with help of banking lobbyists into making exceptions to the Uniform Commercial Code, bankruptcy laws, etc to punish the ones in the middle(the students). If Fed and state govs do not get their act together...it will be student revolt through non-payment.

adammichaelc 15y ago

Can anybody confirm that the DOE really sent a SWAT-like team just to collect on a debt? If this is confirmed, this should be very alarming to us.

commandar 15y ago
DoE OIG released a statement saying that they were investigating a criminal fraud case, not unpaid student loans.
- hugh3 15y ago
  Sigh. I'm tired of the internet, and its nonstop flow of stories which sound outrageous when you read the summary but rapidly sound a bit more sensible when you find out the details.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - kjksf 15y ago
    I'm not sure if sending S.W.A.T.-like team to "investigate" is sensible. The U.S. managed to investigate things by sending detectives for a long time. Other countries seem to manage the policing without the need for equivalent of S.W.A.T. S.W.A.T. teams are equivalent of Special Forces in Army. They are armed with extremely dangerous weapons and highly trained to kill. You're only supposed to send those people when there's a reasonable suspicions of armed resistance, not on routine investigation of white-collar crime, just because you can.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      Maybe it isn't sensible. But it's more sensible. Are there other details which still haven't been revealed? Was the dude a well-known organized crime figure? Was his home bristling with weapons? Had they already tried the sensible "knock on the door" method? I don't know. But I've been bitten enough times by important details left out of the story to make it more sensational that I'm disinclined to get too outraged over things I've read on the internet until I've heard both sides of the story.

DannoHung 15y ago

Why would they give the money directly to the student instead of the educational institution?

phillmv 15y ago
You still need to pay rent and eat. Pretty integral parts of any good education, I'd wager.
orijing 15y ago
Apparently to give to those who need it more. For example, because my parents had a median Silicon-valley income (which was above the national median), I did not get any financial aid, reasonable financing options, etc. My parents, limited by the mortgage payments to the house they bought in 2007 (bad timing, I know), had very little free cash (I had a little sister). As a result, I had to work for my money while there were supposedly poor classmates running around with Macbook Pros and brand new iPhones and iPads, paid for by their financial aid. (Or rather, they didn't have to pay for living and tuition, so every dollar they earned went into accessories). You can tell I'm a bit bitter about this. I wonder what everyone else thinks. I understand that education should be equal opportunity, but this is not equal opportunity.
- ohyes 15y ago
  Except those people are all buried in debt from student loans and their extravagant spending. You kind of dodged a bullet there.
  - orijing 15y ago
    Which kind of people? Those receiving financial aid, or those who aren't (like me)?
    - ohyes 15y ago
      Those who took out loans and spent them on macbooks.

pzb 15y ago

Every federal department has an Inspector General and the employees are federal agents authorized to carry firearms and conduct raids. However contrary to the article, the OIG agents, like all other officers, have to get a judge to sign the warrant and approve it for no-knock service. A few examples: NASA OIG: http://oig.nasa.gov/ http://oig.nasa.gov/ USPS Postal Inspectors: https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/ https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/ National Endowment for the Arts: http://www.nea.gov/about/OIG/Contents.html http://www.nea.gov/about/OIG/Contents.html All Inspectors General: http://www.ignet.gov/igs/homepage1.html http://www.ignet.gov/igs/homepage1.html

subway 15y ago

The author's misuse of the acronym DOE is rather distracting -- DOE typically refers to the Department of Energy here in the US. The Department of Education (or Education Department) typically uses "ED".

yaix 15y ago
Thanks. I was wondering how many US gov departments were using the same initial.

thesis 15y ago

In my opinion if they were investigating fraud then the raid was reasonable. The no knock warrant seems like a bit of a stretch though. What were they going to do? Flush the money down the toilet? If it was just over defaulted loans, then hopefully the DOE put liens and levys where they could prior.

iskander 15y ago

>The most likely crime being investigated is student aid fraud, which is an immense problem especially at inner-city colleges. Because of the ease of obtaining government grants and loans, students can register for different programs under multiple names and Social Security numbers. Worth noting: this stuff happens mostly w/ public institutions, since the private ones are under harsher guidelines and a lot more scrutiny.

smashing 15y ago
What harsher guidelines? Do you have a citation for this? I would think the much greater number of students who attend public schools would also correlate to greater instances of fraud. There is no mention of any relation as a percentage.
- iskander 15y ago
  I learned the above by speaking with employees at a private for-profit school, but when I went looking for supporting evidence I found I've been somewhat misinformed. The private school loan default rates are much worse than public schools: http://www.quickanded.com/2010/09/repayment-rates-vs-cdrs.html http://www.quickanded.com/2010/09/repayment-rates-vs-cdrs.ht...