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I'm not a free market apologist by any means, but we also didn't see "poor people" or folks in the lower economic strata buy mobile devices and smartphones when

I'm not a free market apologist by any means, but we also didn't see "poor people" or folks in the lower economic strata buy mobile devices and smartphones when they became first available, at least not the scale we're seeing now (without mentioning the fact that the devices were crazy expensive when first launched, adjusting for inflation). Economy of scale is a thing, and imo it's OK to use the rich and the wealthy as 'guinea pigs' of sorts (which mostly is voluntary as the wealthy are more likely to make riskier bets on new tech than people living paycheck-to-paycheck). As EV market extends downwards on the economic 'pecking order,' I'm really hoping even more drastic cost reduction and lower barriers of entry into the EV market for folks that are not rich.

iagovar 6y ago
An expensive phone is about 500-1000€. A cheap EV is in the 20K neighborhood, and the functionality is pretty bad compared to a cheap second-hand utility car (pretty hard to travel outside your city). Even when regulations push prices up, it's still far more economical to buy a cheap gas car than a cheap EV. Even in Europe there are plenty of countries where many people can't afford an EV. They can afford second-hand ICE cars. So unless there can be a second-hand market of EVs for about 6K without worrying about the battery, and with a similar functionality of a second-hand ICE car, then yes, EVs will be for upper income brackets. And I'm not even mentioning that most people lives in apartment buildings, and it's very likely that your car sleeps in the street. I've seen this discussions around here. People won't buy EVs in the near future because they are expensive, have very low range, you have to have a house, or own a flat (because nobody will pay for a charger installation in a rented flat) with garage, etc. What people is buying is little electric Scooters. Most of them are <500€ and you can charge em everywhere. It makes sense for travelling inside a city. Spending 20K for not being able to go from Santiago to Madrid, doesn't make any sense.
- the8472 6y ago
  Nissan leafs are get into the price range and they're basically first-generation mass-market EVs. Yes people do buy these. And in some european cities street-side/lamppost chargers already are a thing. Multiple conditions are only going to get better, not worse.
  - iagovar 6y ago
    Nissan Leafs are ~20k for Km0 offers in Spain. They are very limited cars in range, functionality is behind than a 10K Km0 Fiat Panda. Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive, and I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city.
    - the8472 6y ago
      > Km0 offers That hardly qualifies as a second-hand market car. > Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive In the past they didn't exist. Today they're scarce. In the future it'll look different. This thread is about trends after all. > And I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city. We can start smaller of course, it only needs to be scaled up with EV adaoption, not reach 100% penetration immediately. The electric scooters you mentioned would benefit too.
      - iagovar 6y ago
        I used Km0 for giving the electric a chance.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  "because nobody will pay for a charger installation in a rented flat" Where did you get this idea? People pay for an AC, a conciege, a cycle room, a roof terrace, a fucking gardener but they wont pay for a charging point? Also why does it have to be rented?
  - iagovar 5y ago
    Most people in Europe lives in rented flats. A charger installation is rather expensive for most of us outside of a few selected countries. People in Switzerland, Norway, or maybe some part of Germany may have no problem. For me it's a rather heavy price. Not to mention dumping capital on an asset which isn't even yours. No thanks.

iagovar 6y ago

An expensive phone is about 500-1000€. A cheap EV is in the 20K neighborhood, and the functionality is pretty bad compared to a cheap second-hand utility car (pretty hard to travel outside your city). Even when regulations push prices up, it's still far more economical to buy a cheap gas car than a cheap EV. Even in Europe there are plenty of countries where many people can't afford an EV. They can afford second-hand ICE cars. So unless there can be a second-hand market of EVs for about 6K without worrying about the battery, and with a similar functionality of a second-hand ICE car, then yes, EVs will be for upper income brackets. And I'm not even mentioning that most people lives in apartment buildings, and it's very likely that your car sleeps in the street. I've seen this discussions around here. People won't buy EVs in the near future because they are expensive, have very low range, you have to have a house, or own a flat (because nobody will pay for a charger installation in a rented flat) with garage, etc. What people is buying is little electric Scooters. Most of them are <500€ and you can charge em everywhere. It makes sense for travelling inside a city. Spending 20K for not being able to go from Santiago to Madrid, doesn't make any sense.

the8472 6y ago
Nissan leafs are get into the price range and they're basically first-generation mass-market EVs. Yes people do buy these. And in some european cities street-side/lamppost chargers already are a thing. Multiple conditions are only going to get better, not worse.
- iagovar 6y ago
  Nissan Leafs are ~20k for Km0 offers in Spain. They are very limited cars in range, functionality is behind than a 10K Km0 Fiat Panda. Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive, and I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city.
  - the8472 6y ago
    > Km0 offers That hardly qualifies as a second-hand market car. > Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive In the past they didn't exist. Today they're scarce. In the future it'll look different. This thread is about trends after all. > And I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city. We can start smaller of course, it only needs to be scaled up with EV adaoption, not reach 100% penetration immediately. The electric scooters you mentioned would benefit too.
    - iagovar 6y ago
      I used Km0 for giving the electric a chance.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
"because nobody will pay for a charger installation in a rented flat" Where did you get this idea? People pay for an AC, a conciege, a cycle room, a roof terrace, a fucking gardener but they wont pay for a charging point? Also why does it have to be rented?
- iagovar 5y ago
  Most people in Europe lives in rented flats. A charger installation is rather expensive for most of us outside of a few selected countries. People in Switzerland, Norway, or maybe some part of Germany may have no problem. For me it's a rather heavy price. Not to mention dumping capital on an asset which isn't even yours. No thanks.