6 ms·

> Say you have an opinion piece in a news paper that says that electric cars will always be expensive toys for the rich. Well, you don't see poor people buying

> Say you have an opinion piece in a news paper that says that electric cars will always be expensive toys for the rich. Well, you don't see poor people buying EVs that much. That's car manufacturer statistics, which I believe deserves a good degree of trust. In the market for new cars, poor people buy cheapest IC cars, but not cheapest EVs. I will take the point that middle class is now buying budget EVs, but you don't have real economy class EVs selling that well in the West, and in China as well. Wuling Mini EV will classify as a true economy class EV, but what people lauding it don't say it that Chinese IC vehicles in the same price range outsell Mini EV many, many times over.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> you don't see poor people buying EVs that much You do, however, see upper middle class people buying them. Which wasn't the case a decade ago, when the Leaf came out [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf
908B64B197 6y ago
How about hybrids like Priuses?
WebDanube 6y ago
I'm not a free market apologist by any means, but we also didn't see "poor people" or folks in the lower economic strata buy mobile devices and smartphones when they became first available, at least not the scale we're seeing now (without mentioning the fact that the devices were crazy expensive when first launched, adjusting for inflation). Economy of scale is a thing, and imo it's OK to use the rich and the wealthy as 'guinea pigs' of sorts (which mostly is voluntary as the wealthy are more likely to make riskier bets on new tech than people living paycheck-to-paycheck). As EV market extends downwards on the economic 'pecking order,' I'm really hoping even more drastic cost reduction and lower barriers of entry into the EV market for folks that are not rich.
- iagovar 6y ago
  An expensive phone is about 500-1000€. A cheap EV is in the 20K neighborhood, and the functionality is pretty bad compared to a cheap second-hand utility car (pretty hard to travel outside your city). Even when regulations push prices up, it's still far more economical to buy a cheap gas car than a cheap EV. Even in Europe there are plenty of countries where many people can't afford an EV. They can afford second-hand ICE cars. So unless there can be a second-hand market of EVs for about 6K without worrying about the battery, and with a similar functionality of a second-hand ICE car, then yes, EVs will be for upper income brackets. And I'm not even mentioning that most people lives in apartment buildings, and it's very likely that your car sleeps in the street. I've seen this discussions around here. People won't buy EVs in the near future because they are expensive, have very low range, you have to have a house, or own a flat (because nobody will pay for a charger installation in a rented flat) with garage, etc. What people is buying is little electric Scooters. Most of them are <500€ and you can charge em everywhere. It makes sense for travelling inside a city. Spending 20K for not being able to go from Santiago to Madrid, doesn't make any sense.
  - the8472 6y ago
    Nissan leafs are get into the price range and they're basically first-generation mass-market EVs. Yes people do buy these. And in some european cities street-side/lamppost chargers already are a thing. Multiple conditions are only going to get better, not worse.
    - iagovar 6y ago
      Nissan Leafs are ~20k for Km0 offers in Spain. They are very limited cars in range, functionality is behind than a 10K Km0 Fiat Panda. Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive, and I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city.
      - the8472 6y ago
        > Km0 offers That hardly qualifies as a second-hand market car. > Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive In the past they didn't exist. Today they're scarce. In the future it'll look different. This thread is about trends after all. > And I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city. We can start smaller of course, it only needs to be scaled up with EV adaoption, not reach 100% penetration immediately. The electric scooters you mentioned would benefit too.
noahtallen 6y ago
There’s still a large difference between upper-middle class and upper class. I think many middle class jobs can support owning a Tesla Model 3 or other mid-range new car but not a Porsche. When I hear “expensive toy for the rich”, I think of a millionaire’s 3rd lambo, not Bill’s Silverado lease. Initial Teslas were sports cars, and now it’s squarely in middle class territory. Still a big improvement and a big market, and in several years, that leads to a good second-hand market and even cheaper EVs. I think for many (not all, of course) people the problem is not price as much as practicality. I could probably be convinced to spend more for an EV, but without chargers in most apartment buildings and with limited charging networks where I might go, it’s not justifiable yet.
- xyzzy21 6y ago
  Not when I can buy an ICE and operate for cheaper - note the nearest "charge station" to me is 30+ miles away and then the next nearest is 100+ miles beyond that. The drop in diesel and gasoline prices recently only cements the value of an ICE vehicle.
  - turtlebits 6y ago
    Unless you drive a lot, you can charge at home? It costs me about $6.00 to charge my 60kwh EV, which has a range of 238 miles.
    - toast0 6y ago
      It's been a while since I rented a place to live, but charging infrastructure for rentals is a big issue. You can't buy an EV if you can't charge at home. And you won't buy an EV if you can charge at home if you're not sure you can charge it if you move. (Not to mention if you think you might move to another state, not being able to drive your car there is a question mark)
  - noahtallen 6y ago
    That’s why I mention practicality! I think yes, for people who strictly buy the cheapest car that’s not bad, it will be some time before EVs are viable. But many people, including myself, think that EVs are better in general. If I was comparing a $15k car to a $20k car, I could be convinced to spend more on an EV if I was just comparing the vehicles themselves in an ideal environment. But that decision doesn’t make sense until the “practicality” problem is solved.
Gibbon1 6y ago
> you don't see poor people buying EVs that much Poor people buy 5 to 15 year old used cars. There aren't that many 5-15 year old used EV's. Yet.
audunw 6y ago
> Well, you don't see poor people buying EVs that much. You don't see poor people buying new cars that much. Which for now is pretty much the same thing as not buying EVs, since almost all EVs on the road are relatively new. That's starting to change here in Norway. There's a decent amount of used EVs entering the second-hand market. And if you can deal with the short range it's definitely preferable to buy one, since they're way more reliable than on older used ICE. The other things helping people buy cheaper EVs here is that it's easier to deal with the shorter range since you have fast charging stations everywhere now. So what needs to improve is: - More used EVs (just have to get middle class people to buy more EVs and wait 5-10 years) - Better charging infrastructure (again, get the middle class to buy EVs to help fund the build-out) - Cheaper EV batteries (again, just get whoever can to buy more EVs, to fund R&D and drive economies of scale) That's why it's so damaging when countries make EV incentives with caps. Just make it a percentage of the price (or cut all taxes) and don't worry about the benefits going to rich people buying luxury EVs. Increase income taxes on the rich instead if that's a problem. This is like the one case where trickle-down economics kind of work, since buying expensive EVs now makes future EVs and charging stations cheaper. And I think cheap BEVs will be a HUGE benefit to poor people in the future, since it saves on gas and maintenance costs in the long term.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > And I think cheap BEVs will be a HUGE benefit to poor people in the future, since it saves on gas and maintenance costs in the long term. I believe the same, if you race for the lowest cost possible, eventually an EV will be cheaper than the cheapest IC powered car for those exact reasons. ... But as I said above. Wuling MiniEV costs like $5500, which is cheaper than low-end Chinese petrol, or diesel engined sedans priced at $7000-$8000, but is still massively, massively outsold by IC cars in its price bracket despite China's massive subsidies for EVs, and quite draconian curbs on IC powered cars.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    In part because the MiniEV has really low range (think first generation Leaf) whereas any IC car is gonna be like a Model 3 at least. 200 miles (on the EPA cycle) really is the minimum for a pure electric car IMHO. 250 miles, really. Otherwise it looks like less of a value than an IC car.
Animats 6y ago
US manufacturers still see EVs as a premium option. Batteries are getting cheap, but it's not showing up in vehicle prices. Jeep has backed off, yet again, from producing an all-electric Jeep Wrangler. They originally announced one for 2020. Then 2021. Then 2022. They shipped some "mild hybrid" things. They just showed an all-electric Jeep Wrangler, but it's a "concept car" only. And, for some reason, has a 6-speed manual transmission. Even when Jeep was still talking about a 2022 Wrangler EV, it was announced as being available only at the highest "trim level", priced 2X over the base product. Ford just slipped the electric Ford F-150 to the 2023 model year. "The estimation for the base price is $100,000" says one source. For a pickup truck whose current base price is $28,940. Ford's electric Mustang starts at $61,000. The base gas-powered Mustang is $27,155. This seems to be a pattern with US manufacturers. Electrics cost 2x the price of the gas model.
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  The Mach-E starts at $43k.
nickik 6y ago
Well, this is the argument against EV from the beginning. Literally people were shitting on Tesla because they started with a the Roadster. Now they have a much, much better car for significantly lower price produced at much, much higher volume. This is just gone continue, each generation produced will move down market. Poor people will never buy new cars, but 2nd hand Bolt EV are already a bargain considering what you save on fuel cost. As more EV are produced, more EV are gone be sold second hand. And at the same time new cheaper EV are gone be interceded in the market. There is no inherent reason why an EV should be more expensive then a gas car, but there is a 100 year technology and infrastructure gap, this gap needs to be filled by the rich, upper middle class and now the middle class. This is basically the same with every new mass technology.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Bolts are a bargain right now because of a safety issue so serious it has a STOP-SELL RECALL order, meaning dealerships aren't allowed to sell them until its fixed, which happens sometime this month. https://electrek.co/2021/02/18/bolt-ev-recall-chevy-software-update-to-fix-battery-fire-risk-in-april/ https://electrek.co/2021/02/18/bolt-ev-recall-chevy-software...

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> you don't see poor people buying EVs that much You do, however, see upper middle class people buying them. Which wasn't the case a decade ago, when the Leaf came out [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

908B64B197 6y ago

How about hybrids like Priuses?

WebDanube 6y ago

I'm not a free market apologist by any means, but we also didn't see "poor people" or folks in the lower economic strata buy mobile devices and smartphones when they became first available, at least not the scale we're seeing now (without mentioning the fact that the devices were crazy expensive when first launched, adjusting for inflation). Economy of scale is a thing, and imo it's OK to use the rich and the wealthy as 'guinea pigs' of sorts (which mostly is voluntary as the wealthy are more likely to make riskier bets on new tech than people living paycheck-to-paycheck). As EV market extends downwards on the economic 'pecking order,' I'm really hoping even more drastic cost reduction and lower barriers of entry into the EV market for folks that are not rich.

iagovar 6y ago
An expensive phone is about 500-1000€. A cheap EV is in the 20K neighborhood, and the functionality is pretty bad compared to a cheap second-hand utility car (pretty hard to travel outside your city). Even when regulations push prices up, it's still far more economical to buy a cheap gas car than a cheap EV. Even in Europe there are plenty of countries where many people can't afford an EV. They can afford second-hand ICE cars. So unless there can be a second-hand market of EVs for about 6K without worrying about the battery, and with a similar functionality of a second-hand ICE car, then yes, EVs will be for upper income brackets. And I'm not even mentioning that most people lives in apartment buildings, and it's very likely that your car sleeps in the street. I've seen this discussions around here. People won't buy EVs in the near future because they are expensive, have very low range, you have to have a house, or own a flat (because nobody will pay for a charger installation in a rented flat) with garage, etc. What people is buying is little electric Scooters. Most of them are <500€ and you can charge em everywhere. It makes sense for travelling inside a city. Spending 20K for not being able to go from Santiago to Madrid, doesn't make any sense.
- the8472 6y ago
  Nissan leafs are get into the price range and they're basically first-generation mass-market EVs. Yes people do buy these. And in some european cities street-side/lamppost chargers already are a thing. Multiple conditions are only going to get better, not worse.
  - iagovar 6y ago
    Nissan Leafs are ~20k for Km0 offers in Spain. They are very limited cars in range, functionality is behind than a 10K Km0 Fiat Panda. Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive, and I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city.
    - the8472 6y ago
      > Km0 offers That hardly qualifies as a second-hand market car. > Street chargers are scarce, and usually expensive In the past they didn't exist. Today they're scarce. In the future it'll look different. This thread is about trends after all. > And I have a hard time picturing a charger in every parking space in my city. We can start smaller of course, it only needs to be scaled up with EV adaoption, not reach 100% penetration immediately. The electric scooters you mentioned would benefit too.

noahtallen 6y ago

There’s still a large difference between upper-middle class and upper class. I think many middle class jobs can support owning a Tesla Model 3 or other mid-range new car but not a Porsche. When I hear “expensive toy for the rich”, I think of a millionaire’s 3rd lambo, not Bill’s Silverado lease. Initial Teslas were sports cars, and now it’s squarely in middle class territory. Still a big improvement and a big market, and in several years, that leads to a good second-hand market and even cheaper EVs. I think for many (not all, of course) people the problem is not price as much as practicality. I could probably be convinced to spend more for an EV, but without chargers in most apartment buildings and with limited charging networks where I might go, it’s not justifiable yet.

xyzzy21 6y ago
Not when I can buy an ICE and operate for cheaper - note the nearest "charge station" to me is 30+ miles away and then the next nearest is 100+ miles beyond that. The drop in diesel and gasoline prices recently only cements the value of an ICE vehicle.
- turtlebits 6y ago
  Unless you drive a lot, you can charge at home? It costs me about $6.00 to charge my 60kwh EV, which has a range of 238 miles.
  - toast0 6y ago
    It's been a while since I rented a place to live, but charging infrastructure for rentals is a big issue. You can't buy an EV if you can't charge at home. And you won't buy an EV if you can charge at home if you're not sure you can charge it if you move. (Not to mention if you think you might move to another state, not being able to drive your car there is a question mark)
- noahtallen 6y ago
  That’s why I mention practicality! I think yes, for people who strictly buy the cheapest car that’s not bad, it will be some time before EVs are viable. But many people, including myself, think that EVs are better in general. If I was comparing a $15k car to a $20k car, I could be convinced to spend more on an EV if I was just comparing the vehicles themselves in an ideal environment. But that decision doesn’t make sense until the “practicality” problem is solved.

Gibbon1 6y ago

> you don't see poor people buying EVs that much Poor people buy 5 to 15 year old used cars. There aren't that many 5-15 year old used EV's. Yet.

audunw 6y ago

> Well, you don't see poor people buying EVs that much. You don't see poor people buying new cars that much. Which for now is pretty much the same thing as not buying EVs, since almost all EVs on the road are relatively new. That's starting to change here in Norway. There's a decent amount of used EVs entering the second-hand market. And if you can deal with the short range it's definitely preferable to buy one, since they're way more reliable than on older used ICE. The other things helping people buy cheaper EVs here is that it's easier to deal with the shorter range since you have fast charging stations everywhere now. So what needs to improve is: - More used EVs (just have to get middle class people to buy more EVs and wait 5-10 years) - Better charging infrastructure (again, get the middle class to buy EVs to help fund the build-out) - Cheaper EV batteries (again, just get whoever can to buy more EVs, to fund R&D and drive economies of scale) That's why it's so damaging when countries make EV incentives with caps. Just make it a percentage of the price (or cut all taxes) and don't worry about the benefits going to rich people buying luxury EVs. Increase income taxes on the rich instead if that's a problem. This is like the one case where trickle-down economics kind of work, since buying expensive EVs now makes future EVs and charging stations cheaper. And I think cheap BEVs will be a HUGE benefit to poor people in the future, since it saves on gas and maintenance costs in the long term.

baybal2 6y ago
> And I think cheap BEVs will be a HUGE benefit to poor people in the future, since it saves on gas and maintenance costs in the long term. I believe the same, if you race for the lowest cost possible, eventually an EV will be cheaper than the cheapest IC powered car for those exact reasons. ... But as I said above. Wuling MiniEV costs like $5500, which is cheaper than low-end Chinese petrol, or diesel engined sedans priced at $7000-$8000, but is still massively, massively outsold by IC cars in its price bracket despite China's massive subsidies for EVs, and quite draconian curbs on IC powered cars.
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  In part because the MiniEV has really low range (think first generation Leaf) whereas any IC car is gonna be like a Model 3 at least. 200 miles (on the EPA cycle) really is the minimum for a pure electric car IMHO. 250 miles, really. Otherwise it looks like less of a value than an IC car.

Animats 6y ago

US manufacturers still see EVs as a premium option. Batteries are getting cheap, but it's not showing up in vehicle prices. Jeep has backed off, yet again, from producing an all-electric Jeep Wrangler. They originally announced one for 2020. Then 2021. Then 2022. They shipped some "mild hybrid" things. They just showed an all-electric Jeep Wrangler, but it's a "concept car" only. And, for some reason, has a 6-speed manual transmission. Even when Jeep was still talking about a 2022 Wrangler EV, it was announced as being available only at the highest "trim level", priced 2X over the base product. Ford just slipped the electric Ford F-150 to the 2023 model year. "The estimation for the base price is $100,000" says one source. For a pickup truck whose current base price is $28,940. Ford's electric Mustang starts at $61,000. The base gas-powered Mustang is $27,155. This seems to be a pattern with US manufacturers. Electrics cost 2x the price of the gas model.

reitzensteinm 6y ago
The Mach-E starts at $43k.

nickik 6y ago

Well, this is the argument against EV from the beginning. Literally people were shitting on Tesla because they started with a the Roadster. Now they have a much, much better car for significantly lower price produced at much, much higher volume. This is just gone continue, each generation produced will move down market. Poor people will never buy new cars, but 2nd hand Bolt EV are already a bargain considering what you save on fuel cost. As more EV are produced, more EV are gone be sold second hand. And at the same time new cheaper EV are gone be interceded in the market. There is no inherent reason why an EV should be more expensive then a gas car, but there is a 100 year technology and infrastructure gap, this gap needs to be filled by the rich, upper middle class and now the middle class. This is basically the same with every new mass technology.

cbozeman 6y ago
Bolts are a bargain right now because of a safety issue so serious it has a STOP-SELL RECALL order, meaning dealerships aren't allowed to sell them until its fixed, which happens sometime this month. https://electrek.co/2021/02/18/bolt-ev-recall-chevy-software-update-to-fix-battery-fire-risk-in-april/ https://electrek.co/2021/02/18/bolt-ev-recall-chevy-software...