6 ms·

Needing to pee while on the road isn’t totally unique to Amazon drivers; and decades of anti-homeless policies mean there are very few places in many cities whe

by cmckn 6y ago

Needing to pee while on the road isn’t totally unique to Amazon drivers; and decades of anti-homeless policies mean there are very few places in many cities where you can just run in to use the bathroom. Many of these drivers operate in the suburbs, where door codes aren’t as common on bathrooms, but it still made me think. (Obviously these drivers are being put under time crunches, hence the bottles, and that is a separate issue)

ncallaway 6y ago
I think you're right that this issue should be viewed both as an Amazon problem, and a public infrastructure problem. Frankly, it's insane to me that we don't consider public bathrooms to be an important component of public infrastructure. But that doesn't take away Amazon's role in the process either.
- WaltPurvis 6y ago
  America Is Not Made for People Who Pee https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/opinion/sunday/public-toilets-united-states.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/opinion/sunday/public-toi...
- fastball 6y ago
  I mean, it kinda does take away Amazon's role, no? The way we've built out our cities means that literally anyone who drives around all day is gonna have a bad time when it comes to relieving themselves. This has nothing to do with how Amazon operates their business and everything to do with a dearth of public restrooms.
  - eropple 6y ago
    It only takes away Amazon's role if you remove their agency for not scheduling people to such a packed degree where they can't go use a restroom. A humanely run business takes these things into account. And given that we as a society allow corporations like Amazon to exist through the granting of special-rights charters for limited liability etc., we should be expecting that they operate humanely.
  - ncallaway 6y ago
    Sure, if Amazon didn’t have any resources to help mitigate the problem, didn’t have control over the schedule pressure they put on drivers, and didn’t tweet dishonestly about the problem then I could see letting them off the hook. But, they’re a massive company with the resources such that they could address this problem. They could also reduce the schedule pressure on driver’s and allow them to take breaks long enough to use a restroom. And they tweeted dishonestly saying it wasn’t a problem. So, I’m not really ready to just let them off the hook. Amazon has agency, and could fix or seriously mitigate this problem if they wanted to. Instead, they chose to ignore it and equivocate about it until it turned into a PR black eye. When I was in high school, I did bread deliveries for a bakery. There weren’t really restrooms I could use when I was on my route in the mornings, but I was told if I ever needed to use the restroom and had no other options I could always return to the bakery and use our restrooms. I never peed in a bottle doing that job. I also never got in trouble for being 20 minutes late for having had to use the restroom.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      I recall the peeing in bottles narrative to have begun with a story three years ago regarding warehouse workers who allegedly didn't have time to go to the bathroom.[0] So when I saw the tweet about whether to "believe" the peeing in bottles thing, I assumed that the PR person was using an internally approved line of defense about that, and was simply too incompetent to realize that the conversation about delivery drivers is similar but not the same thing. It seems pretty obvious to me that some Amazon drivers, like other drivers, are going to pee in bottles from time to time. This doesn't seem like a fate worse than death, IMO, at least not for male drivers. But I do think it's a reason why Amazon shouldn't put cameras in its delivery vehicles. Still, you would think that Amazon could maintain a bathroom depot in its major delivery areas. Maybe even their own gas stations. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse-jobs-worker-conditions-bathroom-breaks https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse...
benjohnson 6y ago
The reason there's no(few) public bathrooms in the US is that we're not allowed to charge for them (with the noble goal of human rights) as opposed to the EU/UK. So the first malcontent that spreads feces all over the walls and blocks up the toilet with a syringe gets the whole thing shut down. http://psmag.com/economics/dont-pay-toilets-america-bathroom-restroom-free-market-90683 http://psmag.com/economics/dont-pay-toilets-america-bathroom...
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  It's also worth noting there are plenty of council-run public toilets that are free, here in the UK. It might not be as clear cut as you think.
  - benjohnson 6y ago
    UK has the same problem with jerks ruining their public toilets causing them to close https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/10/closure-of-public-toilets-causing-anxiety-distress-and-frustration-across-uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/10/closure-of-pub...
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    It varies quite a bit in the US also. My local park has public restrooms in several spots. The 'downtown development authority' provides public bathrooms in the (run down) commercial district. Highways in the state have relatively evenly spaced public rest stops.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      rest stops tend to be far outside of cities, and are pretty remote. a delivery driver isn't going to be using one of these during the course of their day. very odd thing to bring up as an example in this context.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        It's an example of public accommodation, I certainly didn't mean to imply that a delivery driver would navigate to one. (in my region the nearest facility would pretty much always be a gas station, with people not getting worked up about it if you walk in just to use the toilet)
grahamburger 6y ago
I've worked jobs where I was on the road a lot. Sometimes you just gotta pee in a bottle. I don't think my employer (not Amazon) was doing anything wrong, or that there was anything they should have been doing differently. When ya gotta go ya gotta go.
- reddotX 6y ago
  EWWWW what if you miss????
ryukafalz 6y ago
Yeah, and this lack of public restrooms affects everyone. Due to health reasons, sometimes I end up having to plan my trips in the city around places I know have easily accessible restrooms. Not only that, our subway stations and trains reek of urine more often than not. It's unpleasant, but I can't blame homeless people for it too much when there are zero restrooms nearby. Anti-homeless policies like this are shortsighted; homeless people aren't going away just because you remove public facilities. They still need to eat, sleep, and do their business like anyone else. Better to both help homeless people improve their situations and provide facilities for basic human needs for everyone.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  The homeless aren't going away from society, but if I close my restroom, they go away from my area. This isn't "shortsighted" at all for the individual restroom operator.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    That's why there's a need for public bathrooms. We are de facto privatizing bathrooms in a way that ends up being an anti homeless policy. Merchants understandably don't want to provide free bathrooms to the general public even where homelessness is not the driving concern. It costs them money while not making any money, so they limit bathroom access to paying customers if they provide bathroom facilities at all.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      The way I'd solve this politically is allowing construction of vastly more new housing in cities. Then the currently homeless can have an indoor toilet where they live.
      - DoreenMichele 6y ago
        This isn't actually a discussion of homelessness. It's a discussion of delivery drivers lacking bathroom access. I'm all for more housing, but solving homelessness doesn't actually put a full stop to a need for public bathrooms.

by cmckn 6y ago

ncallaway 6y ago

I think you're right that this issue should be viewed both as an Amazon problem, and a public infrastructure problem. Frankly, it's insane to me that we don't consider public bathrooms to be an important component of public infrastructure. But that doesn't take away Amazon's role in the process either.

WaltPurvis 6y ago
America Is Not Made for People Who Pee https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/opinion/sunday/public-toilets-united-states.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/opinion/sunday/public-toi...
fastball 6y ago
I mean, it kinda does take away Amazon's role, no? The way we've built out our cities means that literally anyone who drives around all day is gonna have a bad time when it comes to relieving themselves. This has nothing to do with how Amazon operates their business and everything to do with a dearth of public restrooms.
- eropple 6y ago
  It only takes away Amazon's role if you remove their agency for not scheduling people to such a packed degree where they can't go use a restroom. A humanely run business takes these things into account. And given that we as a society allow corporations like Amazon to exist through the granting of special-rights charters for limited liability etc., we should be expecting that they operate humanely.
- ncallaway 6y ago
  Sure, if Amazon didn’t have any resources to help mitigate the problem, didn’t have control over the schedule pressure they put on drivers, and didn’t tweet dishonestly about the problem then I could see letting them off the hook. But, they’re a massive company with the resources such that they could address this problem. They could also reduce the schedule pressure on driver’s and allow them to take breaks long enough to use a restroom. And they tweeted dishonestly saying it wasn’t a problem. So, I’m not really ready to just let them off the hook. Amazon has agency, and could fix or seriously mitigate this problem if they wanted to. Instead, they chose to ignore it and equivocate about it until it turned into a PR black eye. When I was in high school, I did bread deliveries for a bakery. There weren’t really restrooms I could use when I was on my route in the mornings, but I was told if I ever needed to use the restroom and had no other options I could always return to the bakery and use our restrooms. I never peed in a bottle doing that job. I also never got in trouble for being 20 minutes late for having had to use the restroom.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    I recall the peeing in bottles narrative to have begun with a story three years ago regarding warehouse workers who allegedly didn't have time to go to the bathroom.[0] So when I saw the tweet about whether to "believe" the peeing in bottles thing, I assumed that the PR person was using an internally approved line of defense about that, and was simply too incompetent to realize that the conversation about delivery drivers is similar but not the same thing. It seems pretty obvious to me that some Amazon drivers, like other drivers, are going to pee in bottles from time to time. This doesn't seem like a fate worse than death, IMO, at least not for male drivers. But I do think it's a reason why Amazon shouldn't put cameras in its delivery vehicles. Still, you would think that Amazon could maintain a bathroom depot in its major delivery areas. Maybe even their own gas stations. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse-jobs-worker-conditions-bathroom-breaks https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243026/amazon-warehouse...

benjohnson 6y ago

The reason there's no(few) public bathrooms in the US is that we're not allowed to charge for them (with the noble goal of human rights) as opposed to the EU/UK. So the first malcontent that spreads feces all over the walls and blocks up the toilet with a syringe gets the whole thing shut down. http://psmag.com/economics/dont-pay-toilets-america-bathroom-restroom-free-market-90683 http://psmag.com/economics/dont-pay-toilets-america-bathroom...

throwaway3699 6y ago
It's also worth noting there are plenty of council-run public toilets that are free, here in the UK. It might not be as clear cut as you think.
- benjohnson 6y ago
  UK has the same problem with jerks ruining their public toilets causing them to close https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/10/closure-of-public-toilets-causing-anxiety-distress-and-frustration-across-uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/10/closure-of-pub...
- maxerickson 6y ago
  It varies quite a bit in the US also. My local park has public restrooms in several spots. The 'downtown development authority' provides public bathrooms in the (run down) commercial district. Highways in the state have relatively evenly spaced public rest stops.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    rest stops tend to be far outside of cities, and are pretty remote. a delivery driver isn't going to be using one of these during the course of their day. very odd thing to bring up as an example in this context.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      It's an example of public accommodation, I certainly didn't mean to imply that a delivery driver would navigate to one. (in my region the nearest facility would pretty much always be a gas station, with people not getting worked up about it if you walk in just to use the toilet)

grahamburger 6y ago

I've worked jobs where I was on the road a lot. Sometimes you just gotta pee in a bottle. I don't think my employer (not Amazon) was doing anything wrong, or that there was anything they should have been doing differently. When ya gotta go ya gotta go.

reddotX 6y ago
EWWWW what if you miss????

ryukafalz 6y ago

Yeah, and this lack of public restrooms affects everyone. Due to health reasons, sometimes I end up having to plan my trips in the city around places I know have easily accessible restrooms. Not only that, our subway stations and trains reek of urine more often than not. It's unpleasant, but I can't blame homeless people for it too much when there are zero restrooms nearby. Anti-homeless policies like this are shortsighted; homeless people aren't going away just because you remove public facilities. They still need to eat, sleep, and do their business like anyone else. Better to both help homeless people improve their situations and provide facilities for basic human needs for everyone.

BurningFrog 6y ago
The homeless aren't going away from society, but if I close my restroom, they go away from my area. This isn't "shortsighted" at all for the individual restroom operator.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  That's why there's a need for public bathrooms. We are de facto privatizing bathrooms in a way that ends up being an anti homeless policy. Merchants understandably don't want to provide free bathrooms to the general public even where homelessness is not the driving concern. It costs them money while not making any money, so they limit bathroom access to paying customers if they provide bathroom facilities at all.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    The way I'd solve this politically is allowing construction of vastly more new housing in cities. Then the currently homeless can have an indoor toilet where they live.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      This isn't actually a discussion of homelessness. It's a discussion of delivery drivers lacking bathroom access. I'm all for more housing, but solving homelessness doesn't actually put a full stop to a need for public bathrooms.