4 ms·

Do you suppose Delphi would have wider adoption if it were open-source? E.g. are the Delphi language features and ecosystem compelling when compared with more w

by brylie 6y ago

Do you suppose Delphi would have wider adoption if it were open-source? E.g. are the Delphi language features and ecosystem compelling when compared with more widely adopted languages with a community governance structure?

zabzonk 6y ago
There is an open source implementation: https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ I don't see it getting wide adoption, but it's not bad for open source. But compared with C# (which is basically Delphi as it should originally have been, by the same designer) - nah.
- sigg3 6y ago
  Just wanted to add that as a total newbie to Free Pascal, I used Lazarus and enjoyed it very much. I still remain a total newbie but that's not because of Lazarus.
- prosaic-hacker 6y ago
  Viral expansion of any tool depends on (pardon the pandemic reference) a super spreader event or 10. Success needs: 1 A killer app. Pascal/Turbo Pascal, Email/nascent Internet, VisiCalc/Apple II, 123/IBM PC. 2 decade long over night success like Python I acquired my "10K hour" badge with Pascal in the late 70s (CDC Cyber 6600) and Mid 80s (PC) and then again with Perl (late 80s to early 2Ks) when each of these peaked. Coming back to the 2015+ versions (Lazarus / Perl 5.24+) of both was nostalgic but the communities were in the backwaters of programming due to viral success of some many others. A compelling event would have to happen to elevate them again. It could happen: Something pushed Ada to almost triple its "popularity" ( to < 1%.) According to PYPL (https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html) in the last year.
- 7thaccount 6y ago
  C# does not compile to native apps by default unless you're using dotnet core or whatever it is called. Powerful language sure, but there is definitely a bit of a divide between the languages just because of that even if they have a similar syntax and high level design
- squarefoot 6y ago
  > I don't see it getting wide adoption It will get it, eventually. It can produce native executables without cross compiling on ARM systems too, which is a huge selling point to me. Think Raspberry PI, other small ARM boards, etc. and the PinePhone too. https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=52217.0 https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=52217.0
cwbrandsma 6y ago
I would say it would have helped...but that wouldn’t happen. Borland as a company depended on Delphi as a revenue source. Microsoft and Sun did not. So they could both give their products away for free and open source them, plus keep people working on those products.
- zabzonk 6y ago
  Well, Microsoft did and do make money from selling development tools and programming language products. Sun of course nearly went bust and were taken over by Oracle. So, maybe not good examples?
  - daitangio 6y ago
    Java had a massive push by Sun. If you have a old java codebase, it is easy to "wrap" around a big proxy and continue to expand it in Java, without learning a new language. Language library is quite well optimized. I like Pascal but its scope rules are Crazy compared to C/Java/C#, nerveless Pascal compiler is reported faster than Java one
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      > I like Pascal but its scope rules are Crazy compared to C/Java/C#, nerveless Pascal compiler is reported faster than Java one Admittedly a long time since I used Pascal proper, but my recollection (and a quick search seems to confirm) that its scope rules are "simply" lexical scoping. Variables are visible only within the area they are declared and not outside, and variables can shadow variables from a higher level. So a global variable can become shadowed by a procedure variable. That's pretty much the same as the other languages use.
antaviana 6y ago
Delphi would have a much wider adoption if the compiler was open source and the IDE was propietary and sold only as a subscription, that is, similar to Jetbrains Kotlin model. Unfortunately it will not happen because Embarcadero current strategy revolves around milking their existing enterprise customers while their IT policies require that an aplication in production is built with components that have a support contract in place.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Ironically, when I watched the Kotlin conf, that seems exactly where JetBrains is trying to drive Kotlin, boosted by Android's adoption, trying to make a Kotlin eco-system out of it. I am betting it is going the Delphi way.
  - jen20 6y ago
    It’s unclear which “that” you mean here, but: - if you’re alluding to the idea that Kotlin would be driven in the direction of closed source compilers and tooling in order to “milk” enterprise adopters: that would require a bizaare set of changes, including changing the license of both the tooling and the compiler - neither of which require copyright assignment, so JetBrains are not even free to do. - if you’re betting on an open compiler but closed tooling, again that would require changing the license of the tooling, which JetBrains is not entirely free to do since it does not get assigned copyright on contributions. I don’t know what agreement JetBrains has in place with Google, but I’d wager it precludes making Kotlin proprietary.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      I am alluding to the tooling features only available in Clion and Enterprise version, alongside the comprising language design to be able to satisfy JVM, JS, Native, ART and WebAssembly. And the active role to make it a InteliJ language for most part, withdrawing support for Eclipse.
  - lelanthran 6y ago
    I don't understand what you and grandparent are trying to say; can you explain in more detail about the parallels you see between JB/Kotlin and Borland/Delphi?

by brylie 6y ago

zabzonk 6y ago

There is an open source implementation: https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ I don't see it getting wide adoption, but it's not bad for open source. But compared with C# (which is basically Delphi as it should originally have been, by the same designer) - nah.

sigg3 6y ago
Just wanted to add that as a total newbie to Free Pascal, I used Lazarus and enjoyed it very much. I still remain a total newbie but that's not because of Lazarus.
prosaic-hacker 6y ago
Viral expansion of any tool depends on (pardon the pandemic reference) a super spreader event or 10. Success needs: 1 A killer app. Pascal/Turbo Pascal, Email/nascent Internet, VisiCalc/Apple II, 123/IBM PC. 2 decade long over night success like Python I acquired my "10K hour" badge with Pascal in the late 70s (CDC Cyber 6600) and Mid 80s (PC) and then again with Perl (late 80s to early 2Ks) when each of these peaked. Coming back to the 2015+ versions (Lazarus / Perl 5.24+) of both was nostalgic but the communities were in the backwaters of programming due to viral success of some many others. A compelling event would have to happen to elevate them again. It could happen: Something pushed Ada to almost triple its "popularity" ( to < 1%.) According to PYPL (https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html) in the last year.
7thaccount 6y ago
C# does not compile to native apps by default unless you're using dotnet core or whatever it is called. Powerful language sure, but there is definitely a bit of a divide between the languages just because of that even if they have a similar syntax and high level design
squarefoot 6y ago
> I don't see it getting wide adoption It will get it, eventually. It can produce native executables without cross compiling on ARM systems too, which is a huge selling point to me. Think Raspberry PI, other small ARM boards, etc. and the PinePhone too. https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=52217.0 https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=52217.0

cwbrandsma 6y ago

I would say it would have helped...but that wouldn’t happen. Borland as a company depended on Delphi as a revenue source. Microsoft and Sun did not. So they could both give their products away for free and open source them, plus keep people working on those products.

zabzonk 6y ago
Well, Microsoft did and do make money from selling development tools and programming language products. Sun of course nearly went bust and were taken over by Oracle. So, maybe not good examples?
- daitangio 6y ago
  Java had a massive push by Sun. If you have a old java codebase, it is easy to "wrap" around a big proxy and continue to expand it in Java, without learning a new language. Language library is quite well optimized. I like Pascal but its scope rules are Crazy compared to C/Java/C#, nerveless Pascal compiler is reported faster than Java one
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    > I like Pascal but its scope rules are Crazy compared to C/Java/C#, nerveless Pascal compiler is reported faster than Java one Admittedly a long time since I used Pascal proper, but my recollection (and a quick search seems to confirm) that its scope rules are "simply" lexical scoping. Variables are visible only within the area they are declared and not outside, and variables can shadow variables from a higher level. So a global variable can become shadowed by a procedure variable. That's pretty much the same as the other languages use.

antaviana 6y ago

Delphi would have a much wider adoption if the compiler was open source and the IDE was propietary and sold only as a subscription, that is, similar to Jetbrains Kotlin model. Unfortunately it will not happen because Embarcadero current strategy revolves around milking their existing enterprise customers while their IT policies require that an aplication in production is built with components that have a support contract in place.

pjmlp 6y ago
Ironically, when I watched the Kotlin conf, that seems exactly where JetBrains is trying to drive Kotlin, boosted by Android's adoption, trying to make a Kotlin eco-system out of it. I am betting it is going the Delphi way.
- jen20 6y ago
  It’s unclear which “that” you mean here, but: - if you’re alluding to the idea that Kotlin would be driven in the direction of closed source compilers and tooling in order to “milk” enterprise adopters: that would require a bizaare set of changes, including changing the license of both the tooling and the compiler - neither of which require copyright assignment, so JetBrains are not even free to do. - if you’re betting on an open compiler but closed tooling, again that would require changing the license of the tooling, which JetBrains is not entirely free to do since it does not get assigned copyright on contributions. I don’t know what agreement JetBrains has in place with Google, but I’d wager it precludes making Kotlin proprietary.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    I am alluding to the tooling features only available in Clion and Enterprise version, alongside the comprising language design to be able to satisfy JVM, JS, Native, ART and WebAssembly. And the active role to make it a InteliJ language for most part, withdrawing support for Eclipse.
- lelanthran 6y ago
  I don't understand what you and grandparent are trying to say; can you explain in more detail about the parallels you see between JB/Kotlin and Borland/Delphi?