5 ms·

What Kind of Genius Makes a Traceable, Illicit Payment on Cash App?

59 points by prostoalex 6y ago

sdan 6y ago
I went on Venmo's public feed once and a handful of the dozens of transactions I scrolled through were clearly regarding something illicit... sometimes they were spelled out clearly lol. I hope they know they're posting all their transactions publicly.
- neolog 6y ago
  It's usually done as a joke.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    I’ve definitely sent payments to friends with various sexual favors as the description for fun.
    - bigmattystyles 6y ago
      Venmo also just scans your phone book (I believe) and adds contacts it finds in your 'friends' feed. I have quite a few professional contacts who are quite different in the way they express themselves with their friends than in the professional setting (as one would expect). They're older (50+) and not in a tech field, and I don't think they realize that it's public by default.
- kevinmchugh 6y ago
  I heard someone at a storytelling event talk about a job interview with one of the payments companies. The job was to build an internal database of local market prices for different sex acts and drugs.
  - edoceo 6y ago
    That sounds fun! Even if just a thought experiment.
- Vadoff 6y ago
  Yeah it's called a joke...
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I was blown away to discover venmo was public by default. I still can't really believe it works like that. Crazy.
rootsudo 6y ago
No, bitcoin wouldn't have been a better choice. Quotes like these really show how the public view such sentiment. Unless under Subpoena or if there's a equivalent emergency of CALEA for an payment gateway, they would not reveal the exact financial statement or settlement. The ledger is private. Meanwhile the bitcoin ledger is public, anyone can see a transaction and know when it happened. With the payment gateway via applepay/cashapp, you know who the person sent it and received it only under warrant/Subpoena. If this is released wrongly, or non-intentionally, then it can easily be inadmissable in court breaking chain of evidence, etc etc. With bitcoin, once you know one party's address, you can view all transactions and see the immediate network effect. Same with knowing the payment gateway details of authorizer and debtor/debtee. There is no need for warrant/Subpoena to view this. I can go on, but you get the picture, I hope.
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  Bitcoin can be provide anonymity from law enforcement if you work hard enough. Cash app clearly can not.
  - spurdoman77 6y ago
    Its not really that hard. Just mix the coins somehow after purchase.
  - uncletammy 6y ago
    Not without trusting a third party that they're not going run off with your money. Also, coinjoins on BTC are craxy expensive because transaction fees are crazy high. Luckily BCH has near-perfect coinjoin privacy with CashFusion. It is capable of running > 20 person coinjoin rounds with no change outputs and no trusted third party. And the transactions always cost a fraction of a penny cause BCH has reasonable sized blocks.
- bellyfullofbac 6y ago
  Yeah, this is probably why the fake IRS makes you buy gift cards and ask you to give them the codes. In the alternate universe where Gaetz was a little bit smarter, he would've withdrawn cash from an ATM and bought Amazon gift cards from a retail store, and sent the girls the codes from messaging account not associated with him.
throwaway_kufu 6y ago
Where are the social justice warriors on Kara swisher and her tweet itself? She is making light of an underage girl and calling her a hooker...clearly when you are part of the SV elite rules and common decency don’t apply. Simultaneously she is giving the old SV wink and nod to Bitcoin - which I’m sure she is heavily invested in - as part of her joke at the expense of this unfortunate underage girl. As for the Congressman, he is a deplorable human being and didn’t use Cash App because he is dumb...he used cash app for the same reason Kara Swisher freely made a joke at the expense of an underage girl caught up in sex trafficking... because Kara and the Congressman are self-righteous, rich, nobles who believe they are above reproach and consequence. Unfortunately for society they are both correct. My guess is it will even come out the Congressman was behind the Text to his father demanding $25M to keep this quiet as a ploy to sidetrack and muddy the waters of the investigation itself.
- duxup 6y ago
  The only tweet in the article seemed to be "Apple Pay for hookers? Seems like Bitcoin would be a better choice." I'm not sure that is what you characterize it as.
  - throwaway_kufu 6y ago
    I read some of the reply’s and kara’s responses and she acknowledges the investigation is targeting the underage sex trafficking. I characterized the tweet as an attempted joke (that also promotes Bitcoin), how would you characterize it? It’s certainly not a serious suggestion. If there were no allegations of underage sex trafficking sure just a joke at the expense of another corrupt public official, but under the set of allegations she is labeling a underage girl a hooker along with consenting adult sex workers. The responses to my comment are exactly my point...people will excuse the SV elite, and it’s no different than the people who will make excuses for the congressman.
- threeseed 6y ago
  > She is making light of an underage girl and calling her a hooker She never called her a hooker though. And Gaetz was using the app to procure prostitutes most of whom weren't underage so its accurate.
cung 6y ago
This does not belong on the frontpage of hackernews.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
> They are also determining whether he financially supported her, including paying for her to travel with him over state lines, in exchange for sex, which could amount to sex trafficking of a minor. I look forward to seeing someone make the argument that if you pay the travel costs associated with a woman traveling with you, you are in fact "sex trafficking" that woman.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  > I look forward to seeing someone make the argument that if you pay the travel costs associated with a woman traveling with you, you are in fact "sex trafficking" that woman. You quote it but seem to deliberately ignore a key part of the quote in your own comment: > paying for her to travel with him over state lines, in exchange for sex, which could amount to sex trafficking of a minor. [emphasis added] If the woman in question was a minor at the time it constitutes trafficking and similar crimes by definition in many jurisdictions.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  > you pay the travel costs associated with a woman traveling with you... You've somehow missed both the "in exchange for sex" and "with a minor" part? This one doesn't seem difficult or ambiguous at all. This is clearly trafficking.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    I missed neither of those things. The particularly stupid argument first: > "with a minor" Sex trafficking is criminalized regardless of whether the woman is a legal minor. Conduct that is "sex trafficking of a minor" when you do it to a minor must be "sex trafficking" of a non-minor when you do it to a non-minor, right? The less stupid argument: > "in exchange for sex" There is no line to be drawn between paying for someone to travel with you, and sleeping with them (900% legal, and still legal when the someone is a minor), versus paying for someone to travel with you, so that you can sleep with them (illegal, but even more illegal when the someone is a minor). There is nothing even slightly unusual about traveling with someone with whom you have a sexual relationship, or about paying their travel costs. And the one in the middle: > This is clearly trafficking. Perhaps, if you're prepared to admit that "trafficking" means nothing more or less than "prostitution". That is not the common use, however; "trafficking" would notionally involve Gaetz receiving money from other third parties so that those third parties could sleep with the girl.
anotherthrowezc 6y ago
CashApp, Venmo, Apple Pay, PayPal and even Zelle are actually more common than I would have thought among sex workers; way more popular than crypto. CashApp especially as CashApp does not reveal your real name. It's not that Gaetz was a "genius" for using CashApp, it's already incredibly common. I don't believe most sex workers and their clients consider police enforcement a real threat, especially given how lax prostitution laws are enforced if you keep out of the public eye. Most sex workers are probably more worried about men who would leak their info or stalk them. So in terms of relative importance privacy is a top concern, but having a traceable ledger isn't (because the police are unlikely to spend the money to throw you behind bars). In fact it's harder to get infromatino from CashApp than it is from Bitcoin. After all a SW's wallet is probably public and at this stage of the investigation it wouldn't be hard to get Gaetz wallet as well. That said, if I were Gaetz and for whatever reason I needed to pay minors for sex I'd seek help. Failing that I would probably exclusively use cash or dead drops.
CyberRabbi 6y ago
This article strangely paints sex workers who use payment apps in a positive light while also painting Gaetz in a negative light for using those payment apps to pay a sex worker. Is paying willing sex workers for sex morally acceptable or not?
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Are they minors? If so, that's unacceptable. Are they adults who are consenting and not being exploited? Then that's different. (And, imho, we should decriminalize and regulate sex work.) Your framing ignores the fact that one of the participants was a child.
  - CyberRabbi 6y ago
    The child in question was 17 at the time of the payments. In many states the age of consent is 16. Do you think the age of consent should be made higher in those states? If so, what do you think is an acceptable minimum age?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      The age of consent in Florida is 18. And in many states 16 or 17 if both parties are of similar age and without significant power imbalance. Also, moving a minor across state lines for sex runs afoul of federal law, not just state laws. Are you suggesting what Gaetz did was somehow ok?
      - CyberRabbi 6y ago
        Could you answer my question first? Do you think the age of consent should be made higher in those states? If so, what do you think is an acceptable minimum age? This is not a matter of current policy but your legal opinion.
elp 6y ago
On the one hand this I can totally see the average politician being both this stupid and this morally questionable. On the other hand the fact that the reporters have been able to see payment details from multiple payment apps and they are reporting this while he is still being just investigated and hasn't been charged yet smells a little too convenient.
- mcphage 6y ago
  > they are reporting this while he is still being just investigated and hasn't been charged yet smells a little too convenient That’s what makes it investigative journalism. It’s one of the reasons journalism even exists.

59 points by prostoalex 6y ago

sdan 6y ago

I went on Venmo's public feed once and a handful of the dozens of transactions I scrolled through were clearly regarding something illicit... sometimes they were spelled out clearly lol. I hope they know they're posting all their transactions publicly.

neolog 6y ago
It's usually done as a joke.
- Spivak 6y ago
  I’ve definitely sent payments to friends with various sexual favors as the description for fun.
  - bigmattystyles 6y ago
    Venmo also just scans your phone book (I believe) and adds contacts it finds in your 'friends' feed. I have quite a few professional contacts who are quite different in the way they express themselves with their friends than in the professional setting (as one would expect). They're older (50+) and not in a tech field, and I don't think they realize that it's public by default.
kevinmchugh 6y ago
I heard someone at a storytelling event talk about a job interview with one of the payments companies. The job was to build an internal database of local market prices for different sex acts and drugs.
- edoceo 6y ago
  That sounds fun! Even if just a thought experiment.
Vadoff 6y ago
Yeah it's called a joke...
ALittleLight 6y ago
I was blown away to discover venmo was public by default. I still can't really believe it works like that. Crazy.

rootsudo 6y ago

No, bitcoin wouldn't have been a better choice. Quotes like these really show how the public view such sentiment. Unless under Subpoena or if there's a equivalent emergency of CALEA for an payment gateway, they would not reveal the exact financial statement or settlement. The ledger is private. Meanwhile the bitcoin ledger is public, anyone can see a transaction and know when it happened. With the payment gateway via applepay/cashapp, you know who the person sent it and received it only under warrant/Subpoena. If this is released wrongly, or non-intentionally, then it can easily be inadmissable in court breaking chain of evidence, etc etc. With bitcoin, once you know one party's address, you can view all transactions and see the immediate network effect. Same with knowing the payment gateway details of authorizer and debtor/debtee. There is no need for warrant/Subpoena to view this. I can go on, but you get the picture, I hope.

colinmhayes 6y ago
Bitcoin can be provide anonymity from law enforcement if you work hard enough. Cash app clearly can not.
- spurdoman77 6y ago
  Its not really that hard. Just mix the coins somehow after purchase.
- uncletammy 6y ago
  Not without trusting a third party that they're not going run off with your money. Also, coinjoins on BTC are craxy expensive because transaction fees are crazy high. Luckily BCH has near-perfect coinjoin privacy with CashFusion. It is capable of running > 20 person coinjoin rounds with no change outputs and no trusted third party. And the transactions always cost a fraction of a penny cause BCH has reasonable sized blocks.
bellyfullofbac 6y ago
Yeah, this is probably why the fake IRS makes you buy gift cards and ask you to give them the codes. In the alternate universe where Gaetz was a little bit smarter, he would've withdrawn cash from an ATM and bought Amazon gift cards from a retail store, and sent the girls the codes from messaging account not associated with him.

throwaway_kufu 6y ago

Where are the social justice warriors on Kara swisher and her tweet itself? She is making light of an underage girl and calling her a hooker...clearly when you are part of the SV elite rules and common decency don’t apply. Simultaneously she is giving the old SV wink and nod to Bitcoin - which I’m sure she is heavily invested in - as part of her joke at the expense of this unfortunate underage girl. As for the Congressman, he is a deplorable human being and didn’t use Cash App because he is dumb...he used cash app for the same reason Kara Swisher freely made a joke at the expense of an underage girl caught up in sex trafficking... because Kara and the Congressman are self-righteous, rich, nobles who believe they are above reproach and consequence. Unfortunately for society they are both correct. My guess is it will even come out the Congressman was behind the Text to his father demanding $25M to keep this quiet as a ploy to sidetrack and muddy the waters of the investigation itself.

duxup 6y ago
The only tweet in the article seemed to be "Apple Pay for hookers? Seems like Bitcoin would be a better choice." I'm not sure that is what you characterize it as.
- throwaway_kufu 6y ago
  I read some of the reply’s and kara’s responses and she acknowledges the investigation is targeting the underage sex trafficking. I characterized the tweet as an attempted joke (that also promotes Bitcoin), how would you characterize it? It’s certainly not a serious suggestion. If there were no allegations of underage sex trafficking sure just a joke at the expense of another corrupt public official, but under the set of allegations she is labeling a underage girl a hooker along with consenting adult sex workers. The responses to my comment are exactly my point...people will excuse the SV elite, and it’s no different than the people who will make excuses for the congressman.
threeseed 6y ago
> She is making light of an underage girl and calling her a hooker She never called her a hooker though. And Gaetz was using the app to procure prostitutes most of whom weren't underage so its accurate.

cung 6y ago

This does not belong on the frontpage of hackernews.

thaumasiotes 6y ago

> They are also determining whether he financially supported her, including paying for her to travel with him over state lines, in exchange for sex, which could amount to sex trafficking of a minor. I look forward to seeing someone make the argument that if you pay the travel costs associated with a woman traveling with you, you are in fact "sex trafficking" that woman.

Jtsummers 6y ago
> I look forward to seeing someone make the argument that if you pay the travel costs associated with a woman traveling with you, you are in fact "sex trafficking" that woman. You quote it but seem to deliberately ignore a key part of the quote in your own comment: > paying for her to travel with him over state lines, in exchange for sex, which could amount to sex trafficking of a minor. [emphasis added] If the woman in question was a minor at the time it constitutes trafficking and similar crimes by definition in many jurisdictions.
Pfhreak 6y ago
> you pay the travel costs associated with a woman traveling with you... You've somehow missed both the "in exchange for sex" and "with a minor" part? This one doesn't seem difficult or ambiguous at all. This is clearly trafficking.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  I missed neither of those things. The particularly stupid argument first: > "with a minor" Sex trafficking is criminalized regardless of whether the woman is a legal minor. Conduct that is "sex trafficking of a minor" when you do it to a minor must be "sex trafficking" of a non-minor when you do it to a non-minor, right? The less stupid argument: > "in exchange for sex" There is no line to be drawn between paying for someone to travel with you, and sleeping with them (900% legal, and still legal when the someone is a minor), versus paying for someone to travel with you, so that you can sleep with them (illegal, but even more illegal when the someone is a minor). There is nothing even slightly unusual about traveling with someone with whom you have a sexual relationship, or about paying their travel costs. And the one in the middle: > This is clearly trafficking. Perhaps, if you're prepared to admit that "trafficking" means nothing more or less than "prostitution". That is not the common use, however; "trafficking" would notionally involve Gaetz receiving money from other third parties so that those third parties could sleep with the girl.

anotherthrowezc 6y ago

CashApp, Venmo, Apple Pay, PayPal and even Zelle are actually more common than I would have thought among sex workers; way more popular than crypto. CashApp especially as CashApp does not reveal your real name. It's not that Gaetz was a "genius" for using CashApp, it's already incredibly common. I don't believe most sex workers and their clients consider police enforcement a real threat, especially given how lax prostitution laws are enforced if you keep out of the public eye. Most sex workers are probably more worried about men who would leak their info or stalk them. So in terms of relative importance privacy is a top concern, but having a traceable ledger isn't (because the police are unlikely to spend the money to throw you behind bars). In fact it's harder to get infromatino from CashApp than it is from Bitcoin. After all a SW's wallet is probably public and at this stage of the investigation it wouldn't be hard to get Gaetz wallet as well. That said, if I were Gaetz and for whatever reason I needed to pay minors for sex I'd seek help. Failing that I would probably exclusively use cash or dead drops.

CyberRabbi 6y ago

This article strangely paints sex workers who use payment apps in a positive light while also painting Gaetz in a negative light for using those payment apps to pay a sex worker. Is paying willing sex workers for sex morally acceptable or not?

Pfhreak 6y ago
Are they minors? If so, that's unacceptable. Are they adults who are consenting and not being exploited? Then that's different. (And, imho, we should decriminalize and regulate sex work.) Your framing ignores the fact that one of the participants was a child.
- CyberRabbi 6y ago
  The child in question was 17 at the time of the payments. In many states the age of consent is 16. Do you think the age of consent should be made higher in those states? If so, what do you think is an acceptable minimum age?
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    The age of consent in Florida is 18. And in many states 16 or 17 if both parties are of similar age and without significant power imbalance. Also, moving a minor across state lines for sex runs afoul of federal law, not just state laws. Are you suggesting what Gaetz did was somehow ok?
    - CyberRabbi 6y ago
      Could you answer my question first? Do you think the age of consent should be made higher in those states? If so, what do you think is an acceptable minimum age? This is not a matter of current policy but your legal opinion.

elp 6y ago

On the one hand this I can totally see the average politician being both this stupid and this morally questionable. On the other hand the fact that the reporters have been able to see payment details from multiple payment apps and they are reporting this while he is still being just investigated and hasn't been charged yet smells a little too convenient.

mcphage 6y ago
> they are reporting this while he is still being just investigated and hasn't been charged yet smells a little too convenient That’s what makes it investigative journalism. It’s one of the reasons journalism even exists.