3 ms·

It's so fascinating. There is no tricking God in Judaism either, but in a completely different way. Since God is by definition all-knowing, you cannot trick him

by WJW 6y ago

It's so fascinating. There is no tricking God in Judaism either, but in a completely different way. Since God is by definition all-knowing, you cannot trick him by using a loophole. Rather, He put the loophole there for His own inscrutable purposes and you are not more or less holy for using it. (Unless it's a loophole in a holy text, then you are clearly more holy since you managed to find the loopholes that He himself put in there for the faithful to find)

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
The Islamic perspective is different. If something is prohibited, then there is no trying to get around the prohibition by stitching together a series of individually permitted transactions, such that the end result is a transaction that mimics the original prohibited one. The prohibition is because the act itself is impermissible, and hence, we are not to try to get around it.
- skeletal88 6y ago
  Then the islamic students who we had here for an event 10 years sgo and refused ti eat pork but really liked to drink booze were full of shit when they answered "we are under a roof, god can't see here" when questioned about their drinking
  - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    Which Islamic students? One of the most basic tenants of Islam, known to even pre-elementary school children, is that God is Omniscient. If what you're saying is really true, then they're ignorant and/or foolish. Plus, this doesn't have anything to do with the original topic.
    - SturgeonsLaw 6y ago
      Muslims are real people, with the drives, desires and flaws of real people. The parent comment matches my experience too, my Muslim friends here in Australia will not touch pork at all, but love a bourbon and coke.
      - astrange 6y ago
        My Muslim friend doesn't practice but claims he still physically can't eat pork (or drink much) without getting sick because he never got used to it. We never tried to confirm this.
        gher-shyu3i 6y ago
        He doesn't practice or doesn't believe? If he doesn't believe in Islam then he's not a Muslim.
        astrange 6y ago
        Isn't that personal? I don't want to ask.
      - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
        And we never denied this. The original argument was that whether or not the religion permits loopholes. If a Muslim chooses not to follow particular teachings of Islam, that's on him, but not because there are "loopholes".
- toast0 6y ago
  Nevertheless, there is an Islamic Banking industry that offers products which seem economically equivilent to a mortgage with interest, while being theologically different enough to attract some market participants.
  - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    Yes, I explained in my other post that many scholars have spoken about such "products". We take our religion from the Quran and Hadith and the understanding of the early generations (Companions and their followers). They didn't have such practices, so we disregard them because they're clearly trying to imitate Western banking practices that are based on usury and interest and other prohibited things in Islam (e.g. shorting, selling what you don't own, gambling, etc.).
schoen 6y ago
Sometimes this concept is exemplified by the Oven of Akhnai story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai which underscores the idea that (in rabbinic Judaism—clearly other currents divided over this very issue!) human institutions were given responsibility for interpreting the law, including in ways that create leniencies or apparent loopholes. Although there is probably a better story or example about loopholes in particular. Baked goods that many people are eating this week for Passover might be a good example, because a fair amount of food chemistry has gone into making some of them fluffy and bread-like, while still not technically being chametz. The mainstream interpretation is that the criteria for being "leavened bread" were authoritatively identified and fixed by rabbinic tradition, and that, if you stay within those criteria, you're fine, even if you produce foods that are subjectively reminiscent of leavened bread. https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-bread-recipes/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-bread-recipes/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cookies/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cookies/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cake-recipes/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cake-recipes/ Fun fact: the oven in question is referred to as תנור (tanur). I wondered if this is cognate with "tandoor", and it is, as both terms were borrowed from Persian. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A8 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A8 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tandoor https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tandoor

by WJW 6y ago

gher-shyu3i 6y ago

The Islamic perspective is different. If something is prohibited, then there is no trying to get around the prohibition by stitching together a series of individually permitted transactions, such that the end result is a transaction that mimics the original prohibited one. The prohibition is because the act itself is impermissible, and hence, we are not to try to get around it.

skeletal88 6y ago
Then the islamic students who we had here for an event 10 years sgo and refused ti eat pork but really liked to drink booze were full of shit when they answered "we are under a roof, god can't see here" when questioned about their drinking
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  Which Islamic students? One of the most basic tenants of Islam, known to even pre-elementary school children, is that God is Omniscient. If what you're saying is really true, then they're ignorant and/or foolish. Plus, this doesn't have anything to do with the original topic.
  - SturgeonsLaw 6y ago
    Muslims are real people, with the drives, desires and flaws of real people. The parent comment matches my experience too, my Muslim friends here in Australia will not touch pork at all, but love a bourbon and coke.
    - astrange 6y ago
      My Muslim friend doesn't practice but claims he still physically can't eat pork (or drink much) without getting sick because he never got used to it. We never tried to confirm this.
      - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
        He doesn't practice or doesn't believe? If he doesn't believe in Islam then he's not a Muslim.
        astrange 6y ago
        Isn't that personal? I don't want to ask.
    - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
      And we never denied this. The original argument was that whether or not the religion permits loopholes. If a Muslim chooses not to follow particular teachings of Islam, that's on him, but not because there are "loopholes".
toast0 6y ago
Nevertheless, there is an Islamic Banking industry that offers products which seem economically equivilent to a mortgage with interest, while being theologically different enough to attract some market participants.
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  Yes, I explained in my other post that many scholars have spoken about such "products". We take our religion from the Quran and Hadith and the understanding of the early generations (Companions and their followers). They didn't have such practices, so we disregard them because they're clearly trying to imitate Western banking practices that are based on usury and interest and other prohibited things in Islam (e.g. shorting, selling what you don't own, gambling, etc.).

schoen 6y ago

Sometimes this concept is exemplified by the Oven of Akhnai story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai which underscores the idea that (in rabbinic Judaism—clearly other currents divided over this very issue!) human institutions were given responsibility for interpreting the law, including in ways that create leniencies or apparent loopholes. Although there is probably a better story or example about loopholes in particular. Baked goods that many people are eating this week for Passover might be a good example, because a fair amount of food chemistry has gone into making some of them fluffy and bread-like, while still not technically being chametz. The mainstream interpretation is that the criteria for being "leavened bread" were authoritatively identified and fixed by rabbinic tradition, and that, if you stay within those criteria, you're fine, even if you produce foods that are subjectively reminiscent of leavened bread. https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-bread-recipes/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-bread-recipes/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cookies/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cookies/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cake-recipes/ https://www.allrecipes.com/gallery/passover-cake-recipes/ Fun fact: the oven in question is referred to as תנור (tanur). I wondered if this is cognate with "tandoor", and it is, as both terms were borrowed from Persian. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A8 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A8 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tandoor https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tandoor