4 ms·

I think textbooks do help, immenesly, atleast for me, with the caveat that they are not there for you to help understand a language, learning to speak comes fro

I think textbooks do help, immenesly, atleast for me, with the caveat that they are not there for you to help understand a language, learning to speak comes from understanding. Sure, you can learn without a formal grammar, but being an adult gives you an advantage over babies, who have to learn everything de novo.

StavrosK 6y ago
How did textbooks help you? They help with giving you texts to read at your level, giving and translating examples, and with exercises, but I've found the "formal grammar" sort of rules entirely useless.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  For me they shortened the time needed to actually learn the language. Admittedly I couldn't speak Italian now if my life depended on it, but a quick run through a textbook (personal emphasis was on conjugation rules and tenses) before spending more time on vocabulary made my trip to Italy much better because on hearing or reading a new verb I could identify the stem and work towards the meaning much faster than if I just heard a random conjugation of the verb without any idea of how to derive that stem. Even if I didn't have to look it up (could derive meaning from context), I could identify that it was a verb, what it's probable conjugations were and start using it much more rapidly than if I'd had to infer these rules from exposure. Especially on a short 2-week trip like I had. There are textbooks that sit somewhere between "Baby's First Italian Reader" and "A First Course in Italian Grammar". A high school or college freshman text can be worked through pretty quickly by a motivated individual and are often more practical than the sort of textbook a pedantic grammarian might seek out, but faster than (only) trying to infer the rules from a participatory experience that isn't always easy to get.
- nickkell 6y ago
  How do you expect to pick apart a sentence without understanding the grammar? It would look like word soup.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    When you read this sentence, do you parse it by logically analyzing which word is the subject, which the object and which the verb?
    - nickkell 6y ago
      No, because English is my first language. German on the other hand is what I've learned as an adult and that's exactly what I'd do.
      - StavrosK 6y ago
        It must take you hours to read a paragraph, then.
        nickkell 6y ago
        It went much quicker after I learned the grammar! It's not like I'm thinking up all the terms that a sentence could possibly consist of, and then finding them in the text. Reading left-to-right you know what kind of word to expect next. It also helps you fill in unknown words based on their context.
cgag 6y ago
I do think going through a basic textbook is important but imo they shouldn't be a part of your plan once you get through one or two. I learned all the rules of spanish grammar more or less in a few semesters in college, but it's just a stepping stone to help with getting tons of input. Like now that I've listened to hundreds of hours of spanish, i just get the subjunctive. Occasionally youtube will recommend me a youtube video explaining it and hearing the rules people throw around seem pretty useless. You hear them and think about them and go, huh, i guess that is true, but for learning I don't think it helps beyond having in the back of your mind as you consume the language, I wouldn't spend any time doing grammar drills or anything with them. Something else people should keep in mind (i don't mean for this to apply to you, i just don't want to make a separate post) is that people will give you language learning advice and claim to speak a language when they can't watch tv, listen to podcasts, or read books in it. If you aspire to this kind of level (no judgement if you don't) do not listen to anyone who hasn't reached it.

StavrosK 6y ago

How did textbooks help you? They help with giving you texts to read at your level, giving and translating examples, and with exercises, but I've found the "formal grammar" sort of rules entirely useless.

Jtsummers 6y ago
For me they shortened the time needed to actually learn the language. Admittedly I couldn't speak Italian now if my life depended on it, but a quick run through a textbook (personal emphasis was on conjugation rules and tenses) before spending more time on vocabulary made my trip to Italy much better because on hearing or reading a new verb I could identify the stem and work towards the meaning much faster than if I just heard a random conjugation of the verb without any idea of how to derive that stem. Even if I didn't have to look it up (could derive meaning from context), I could identify that it was a verb, what it's probable conjugations were and start using it much more rapidly than if I'd had to infer these rules from exposure. Especially on a short 2-week trip like I had. There are textbooks that sit somewhere between "Baby's First Italian Reader" and "A First Course in Italian Grammar". A high school or college freshman text can be worked through pretty quickly by a motivated individual and are often more practical than the sort of textbook a pedantic grammarian might seek out, but faster than (only) trying to infer the rules from a participatory experience that isn't always easy to get.
nickkell 6y ago
How do you expect to pick apart a sentence without understanding the grammar? It would look like word soup.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- StavrosK 6y ago
  When you read this sentence, do you parse it by logically analyzing which word is the subject, which the object and which the verb?
  - nickkell 6y ago
    No, because English is my first language. German on the other hand is what I've learned as an adult and that's exactly what I'd do.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      It must take you hours to read a paragraph, then.
      - nickkell 6y ago
        It went much quicker after I learned the grammar! It's not like I'm thinking up all the terms that a sentence could possibly consist of, and then finding them in the text. Reading left-to-right you know what kind of word to expect next. It also helps you fill in unknown words based on their context.

cgag 6y ago

I do think going through a basic textbook is important but imo they shouldn't be a part of your plan once you get through one or two. I learned all the rules of spanish grammar more or less in a few semesters in college, but it's just a stepping stone to help with getting tons of input. Like now that I've listened to hundreds of hours of spanish, i just get the subjunctive. Occasionally youtube will recommend me a youtube video explaining it and hearing the rules people throw around seem pretty useless. You hear them and think about them and go, huh, i guess that is true, but for learning I don't think it helps beyond having in the back of your mind as you consume the language, I wouldn't spend any time doing grammar drills or anything with them. Something else people should keep in mind (i don't mean for this to apply to you, i just don't want to make a separate post) is that people will give you language learning advice and claim to speak a language when they can't watch tv, listen to podcasts, or read books in it. If you aspire to this kind of level (no judgement if you don't) do not listen to anyone who hasn't reached it.