6 ms·

it's hard to say. there are indigenous Australian stories that have been preserved over 10,000 years that apparently have an accurate correspondence to the geol

it's hard to say. there are indigenous Australian stories that have been preserved over 10,000 years that apparently have an accurate correspondence to the geological changes that took place over that time period. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-tale-told-accurately-for-10-000-years/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-... 100,000 years does seem like a really long time though for a direct connection to present-day people.

wombatmobile 6y ago
Gutenberg changed our social structures and mental practices enormously. His presses lead to an explosion of protestantism, colonialism, slavery, and ultimately democracy. More than that, it begat the widespread practice of scientific research, which requires the examination and cultural transmission of quantitative information in fine grained contexts. We take Gutenberg's disruption for granted now, but it's a recent event. For millennia before Gutenberg, history and culture were transmitted orally. Amazingly, we don't have any appreciation for how that was done, except when we see something on television that we can't explain. Have you ever seen a memory champion memorise the order of two decks of cards in less than two minutes? How about the names of two dozen people from the audience in less than a minute, recalled perfectly at the end of the show? If so, you have glimpsed the technique that homo sapiens relied on for millennia. Did you know it's possible for you to remember lists of thousands of detailed facts and stories, even if you don't consider that your memory is anything special? The reason you don't do this is that (a) you don't need to do it because you have a laptop and a phone; and (b) you never learned how. But the Greeks and the Romans did it, and every culture before them. If they hadn't done it, you wouldn't have a laptop or a phone because you'd still be living on the savanna or in a cave. The Art of Memory by Frances Yates https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/The_Art_Of_Memory/bHeVn9BkUFwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/The_Art_Of_Memory/bH...
- whatshisface 6y ago
  I really doubt that you could associate the printing press with an "explosion in slavery" given the history of the classical world.
  - eloff 6y ago
    What would be the causal link between the printing press and slavery? If anything it seems like they're just concurrent happenings in history. Maybe a slippery slope style of argument where printing press led to X which led to Y, which opened the new world, which led to plantations, which led to slavery. The problem with that is you can start at anything and end up there. The wheel. The loom. I could probably spin a convincing yarn starting from beer.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      > What would be the causal link between the printing press and slavery Advertising, accountancy and international shipping, all enabled by Gutenbergs presses. Prior to that, slavery, which has been practised since ancient times, was a local phenomenon.
      - nkrisc 6y ago
        If that's the argument then I think a better culprit is advances in seafaring technology enabling the transport of a slaves, not the Gutenberg press.
        wombatmobile 6y ago
        You don't say why though. What printing did was enable capital markets and merchants to establish mercantile practices that could extend to an arbitrary N degrees of separation. That network expansion, more than any individual technological innovation, is responsible for the upscaling of all the enterprises which distinguish mass consumer society from any prior society. The Atlantic slave trade was one important step on this journey.
        nkrisc 6y ago
        Slave trade existed long before the printing press. My argument is that advances in naval technology enabled the transport of larges amounts of slaves very long distances, which was otherwise not previously feasible. How many commercial and trade documents were printed with a press? Contracts, ledgers, etc. were still mostly handwritten.
- hodgesrm 6y ago
  I'm really skeptical of this kind of claim. Gutenberg's invention was undoubtedly critical to development of the West but the following "consequences" are anachronisms: * Protestantism - Luther was the culmination of a series of heretical revolts against orthodox Catholicism that included the Cathari, Waldensians, Hussites, and many others. German nationalism and corruption of the Roman Church were important factors in his success. * Colonialism -- Practiced by the Carthaginians and Greeks throughout the Mediterranean. * Slavery -- A long and ugly story documented in texts like the Bible, Homer, and many others dating to the beginning of recorded history. It was pervasive in classical Mediterranean civilizations. * Democracy -- Classical examples of full democracy: Athens, Corinth, Megara, Syracuse, Rome. Medieval examples of proto-democracies: Swiss Cantons, Venice, Hanseatic League cities, etc. What Gutenberg did achieve was lay the foundation for widespread literacy by making books cheaper and more available than at any previous point in European history. That alone is a major accomplishment.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    "Classical examples of full democracy: Athens, Corinth, Megara, Syracuse, Rome. " It seems we have a big difference in the definition of "full democracy".
    - hodgesrm 6y ago
      Perhaps 'relevant' is a better word. Classical city states provided models to democratic movements of the 18th and 19th century. Cicero's example and writings were studied carefully, just to name one of many. [1] They obviously weren't the only sources; the English and Americans in particular offered a wealth of homegrown innovations for study. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero#Legacy
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    > What Gutenberg did achieve was lay the foundation for widespread literacy That's a start. Now consider the content of what people read. Accounting 101 Democracy 101 Science 101, 102, 103, 201, 202, 203, 301, 302, 303 etc. The word of God, localised in a dozen languages What might be the impact of this content on people's thoughts and practices? Then think about how commerce works. Have you ever been part of a company that has raised funds on the stock market, or sold goods internationally? Can you imagine doing either of those things without the invention of the printing press?
- mr_toad 6y ago
  > For millennia before Gutenberg, history and culture were transmitted orally. Gutenberg didn’t invent writing! Written culture was a huge deal long before the printing press.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    > Written culture was a huge deal long before the printing press. The limitation for the first 5,500 years of writing was not so much the technology of writing, as the scale of publishing.
    - marcus_holmes 6y ago
      Only priests and nobles could read. The general population of Europe before the printing press couldn't read. Partly because there was no point - they couldn't afford the books even if they could read them. And partly as control. Remember the Church vehemently opposed the translation of the Bible from Latin, because if the general population could read it they'd start making their own minds up about what it said.
      - wombatmobile 6y ago
        Right. Then Gutenberg’s presses enabled the bible to be published in German, French, English, Belgian, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese and English. Bibles were distributed to individual parishes where priests could conduct their own sermons without reference to a central authority.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  In the early 90's I used to have 50+ phone numbers memorised. Now I struggle to remember my own number.
  - lovemenot 6y ago
    Your own number is presumably not so old. How many of those 50 do you still remember?
    - marcus_holmes 6y ago
      None. All gone. I also find this with code syntax. Because looking it up is so easy, I don't bother remembering it. Back in the 90's I remembered all this, no problem. Now I have to keep checking how to initialise an array in whatever language I'm in. Ofc, it could be old age ;)

wombatmobile 6y ago

Gutenberg changed our social structures and mental practices enormously. His presses lead to an explosion of protestantism, colonialism, slavery, and ultimately democracy. More than that, it begat the widespread practice of scientific research, which requires the examination and cultural transmission of quantitative information in fine grained contexts. We take Gutenberg's disruption for granted now, but it's a recent event. For millennia before Gutenberg, history and culture were transmitted orally. Amazingly, we don't have any appreciation for how that was done, except when we see something on television that we can't explain. Have you ever seen a memory champion memorise the order of two decks of cards in less than two minutes? How about the names of two dozen people from the audience in less than a minute, recalled perfectly at the end of the show? If so, you have glimpsed the technique that homo sapiens relied on for millennia. Did you know it's possible for you to remember lists of thousands of detailed facts and stories, even if you don't consider that your memory is anything special? The reason you don't do this is that (a) you don't need to do it because you have a laptop and a phone; and (b) you never learned how. But the Greeks and the Romans did it, and every culture before them. If they hadn't done it, you wouldn't have a laptop or a phone because you'd still be living on the savanna or in a cave. The Art of Memory by Frances Yates https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/The_Art_Of_Memory/bHeVn9BkUFwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/The_Art_Of_Memory/bH...

whatshisface 6y ago
I really doubt that you could associate the printing press with an "explosion in slavery" given the history of the classical world.
- eloff 6y ago
  What would be the causal link between the printing press and slavery? If anything it seems like they're just concurrent happenings in history. Maybe a slippery slope style of argument where printing press led to X which led to Y, which opened the new world, which led to plantations, which led to slavery. The problem with that is you can start at anything and end up there. The wheel. The loom. I could probably spin a convincing yarn starting from beer.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    > What would be the causal link between the printing press and slavery Advertising, accountancy and international shipping, all enabled by Gutenbergs presses. Prior to that, slavery, which has been practised since ancient times, was a local phenomenon.
    - nkrisc 6y ago
      If that's the argument then I think a better culprit is advances in seafaring technology enabling the transport of a slaves, not the Gutenberg press.
      - wombatmobile 6y ago
        You don't say why though. What printing did was enable capital markets and merchants to establish mercantile practices that could extend to an arbitrary N degrees of separation. That network expansion, more than any individual technological innovation, is responsible for the upscaling of all the enterprises which distinguish mass consumer society from any prior society. The Atlantic slave trade was one important step on this journey.
        nkrisc 6y ago
        Slave trade existed long before the printing press. My argument is that advances in naval technology enabled the transport of larges amounts of slaves very long distances, which was otherwise not previously feasible. How many commercial and trade documents were printed with a press? Contracts, ledgers, etc. were still mostly handwritten.
hodgesrm 6y ago
I'm really skeptical of this kind of claim. Gutenberg's invention was undoubtedly critical to development of the West but the following "consequences" are anachronisms: * Protestantism - Luther was the culmination of a series of heretical revolts against orthodox Catholicism that included the Cathari, Waldensians, Hussites, and many others. German nationalism and corruption of the Roman Church were important factors in his success. * Colonialism -- Practiced by the Carthaginians and Greeks throughout the Mediterranean. * Slavery -- A long and ugly story documented in texts like the Bible, Homer, and many others dating to the beginning of recorded history. It was pervasive in classical Mediterranean civilizations. * Democracy -- Classical examples of full democracy: Athens, Corinth, Megara, Syracuse, Rome. Medieval examples of proto-democracies: Swiss Cantons, Venice, Hanseatic League cities, etc. What Gutenberg did achieve was lay the foundation for widespread literacy by making books cheaper and more available than at any previous point in European history. That alone is a major accomplishment.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "Classical examples of full democracy: Athens, Corinth, Megara, Syracuse, Rome. " It seems we have a big difference in the definition of "full democracy".
  - hodgesrm 6y ago
    Perhaps 'relevant' is a better word. Classical city states provided models to democratic movements of the 18th and 19th century. Cicero's example and writings were studied carefully, just to name one of many. [1] They obviously weren't the only sources; the English and Americans in particular offered a wealth of homegrown innovations for study. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero#Legacy
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  > What Gutenberg did achieve was lay the foundation for widespread literacy That's a start. Now consider the content of what people read. Accounting 101 Democracy 101 Science 101, 102, 103, 201, 202, 203, 301, 302, 303 etc. The word of God, localised in a dozen languages What might be the impact of this content on people's thoughts and practices? Then think about how commerce works. Have you ever been part of a company that has raised funds on the stock market, or sold goods internationally? Can you imagine doing either of those things without the invention of the printing press?
mr_toad 6y ago
> For millennia before Gutenberg, history and culture were transmitted orally. Gutenberg didn’t invent writing! Written culture was a huge deal long before the printing press.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  > Written culture was a huge deal long before the printing press. The limitation for the first 5,500 years of writing was not so much the technology of writing, as the scale of publishing.
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    Only priests and nobles could read. The general population of Europe before the printing press couldn't read. Partly because there was no point - they couldn't afford the books even if they could read them. And partly as control. Remember the Church vehemently opposed the translation of the Bible from Latin, because if the general population could read it they'd start making their own minds up about what it said.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      Right. Then Gutenberg’s presses enabled the bible to be published in German, French, English, Belgian, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese and English. Bibles were distributed to individual parishes where priests could conduct their own sermons without reference to a central authority.
marcus_holmes 6y ago
In the early 90's I used to have 50+ phone numbers memorised. Now I struggle to remember my own number.
- lovemenot 6y ago
  Your own number is presumably not so old. How many of those 50 do you still remember?
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    None. All gone. I also find this with code syntax. Because looking it up is so easy, I don't bother remembering it. Back in the 90's I remembered all this, no problem. Now I have to keep checking how to initialise an array in whatever language I'm in. Ofc, it could be old age ;)