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This is a synopsis of the book described here: https://www.versobooks.com/books/3184-breaking-things-at-work https://www.versobooks.com/books/3184-breaking-thin

This is a synopsis of the book described here: https://www.versobooks.com/books/3184-breaking-things-at-work https://www.versobooks.com/books/3184-breaking-things-at-wor... Breaking Things at Work. The Luddites Are Right About Why You Hate Your Job, by Gavin Mueller The basic gist is that software is eating people's jobs, and everything has to be an /app/ these days or it's not credible.

infoseek12 6y ago
Can you explain how this relates to hackers being the new Luddites? I haven’t had a chance to listen to the podcast yet but I can’t see how it’s description or yours relates to the title.
- cyberlab 6y ago
  > the seeds of this resistance are already present in the neo-Luddite efforts of hackers, pirates, and dark web users who are challenging surveillance and control, often through older systems of communication technology I actually don't agree that using the dark web is using older technology (but I can see why using the postal system to deliver contraband to households would be old tech). Tor is relatively recent tech that people can use. I think what the writer means is that hackers usually try to avoid prosecution by encrypting literally everything they do (an old cypherpunk tactic), so when they eventually get vanned by a LEA they have nothing to hand over for evidence. How this is being a Luddite though is questionable. There is a disconnect there.
- tomc1985 6y ago
  I identify as a 'hacker' in the 2600/Phrack tradition, and I definitely feel like a luddite rejecting the centralization of control as everything moves into the cloud, and proliferation of anti-consumer software that disempowers. Linux and BSD are beginning to feel like the last bastions of true user freedom, and the only remaining place that I have any control over my destiny as a user (and creator) of software. DRM, app stores, subscription models, SaaS... I would burn all of these things to ground if I could
  - SCHiM 6y ago
    Grew up reading Phrack too. Work as pentester these days. I understand code deeply, and have tried my hand at everything from memory corruption exploits to javascript SPA apps. I hate technology more and more. It's moving in the wrong direction. Almost everything technological seems to be used to increase control over individuals, extract money, track or predict. No company can seem to withstand the lure and the power that comes from controlling, analyzing and aggressively tracking users. Every traditional device that works just fine, now only has 'smart' alternatives available. The only value-add for the consumer appears to be that I can use my smartphone as the thermostat remote. The value for the energy company seems to be to better predict when to raise prices and bill & track me.
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      I think you can simplify this entire thread into: Software that's built with money, keeps making design decisions that increase profit. Software that's built ambivalent to money, makes other design decisions. Most software is built with money. The only thing that feels like it will fix this is a software/hardware bill of rights. E.g. right to repair, right to source, etc. Otherwise, things will get more exploitive, as products get cheaper.
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        Frankly, any discussion about this invariably becomes a critique of capitalism. If you further generalize “software” to “organization”, your examples would include the various decisions companies make to increase profit: polluting, exploiting their workers, etc. At some point, we just have to acknowledge that a free market simply does not work.
        ethbr0 6y ago
        A free market is extremely efficient at some things. It's also extremely terrible at other things. Of all the options, a free market with regulation to internalize social externalities seems the optimal solution.
- tenebrisalietum 6y ago
  Hackers in the classical sense don't like being part of an authoritarian structure. What do you do when the technological world that you may have had a hand in creating turns on you, when technology and computing becomes an enslavement rather than a liberation? It makes sense for hackers to then find freedom without technology.
- klyrs 6y ago
  I'm a Luddite and a luddite. There's a distinction that folks fail to make: in my jargon, a Luddite opposes the automation of labor without a plan to support the displaced laborers (as the followers of Ludd), and a luddite opposes the use of technology (a perverse interpretation of Ludd as an opponent of technology) I automate all kinds of stuff for my job, of course; I'm a cyborg and my brain works better when I can offload processing to a CPU. When I make design decisions that impact laborers at my company, that's something I think a lot about -- if it can make their job less harmful (in terms of RSI, etc), that's great; if I'm going to put somebody out of work, I'll reconsider telling my boss about an option I see. But lots of tech is totally out of my control. IOT bugs the hell out of me, especially with everything phoning home. I hate that people willingly allow google, amazon, apple, tesla and onstar to straight up listen to every word that's said in their house/car. Hell, I don't even like cars made after the 80s. When I grew up, there were people who reliably knew how everything in the pedestrian world worked, and could generally be counted on to fix anything that broke (except perhaps RF electronics, people specialize in that because big caps go brrr). But today, pretty much everything is unfixable; even furniture is mostly ikea or (somehow) lesser-quality pressboard crap. So to me, saying that hackers are the new luddites is a statement about control. We want to own the objects we buy. We want to hack them, fix them, repurpose them. I'm in a relative minority on the labor theory thing
  - Rule35 6y ago
    > I'm a Luddite and a luddite. There's a distinction that folks fail to make: in my jargon, a Luddite opposes the automation of labor without a plan to support the displaced laborers (as the followers of Ludd) Being aware of the effects of automation seems wise. My problem with Ludditism as a philosophy is that it seems to focus anger on the businesses that created the jobs in the first place rather than focusing energy on the government (ie, the people) making more jobs. Why does offering someone something become a promise to keep doing so?

infoseek12 6y ago

Can you explain how this relates to hackers being the new Luddites? I haven’t had a chance to listen to the podcast yet but I can’t see how it’s description or yours relates to the title.

cyberlab 6y ago
> the seeds of this resistance are already present in the neo-Luddite efforts of hackers, pirates, and dark web users who are challenging surveillance and control, often through older systems of communication technology I actually don't agree that using the dark web is using older technology (but I can see why using the postal system to deliver contraband to households would be old tech). Tor is relatively recent tech that people can use. I think what the writer means is that hackers usually try to avoid prosecution by encrypting literally everything they do (an old cypherpunk tactic), so when they eventually get vanned by a LEA they have nothing to hand over for evidence. How this is being a Luddite though is questionable. There is a disconnect there.
tomc1985 6y ago
I identify as a 'hacker' in the 2600/Phrack tradition, and I definitely feel like a luddite rejecting the centralization of control as everything moves into the cloud, and proliferation of anti-consumer software that disempowers. Linux and BSD are beginning to feel like the last bastions of true user freedom, and the only remaining place that I have any control over my destiny as a user (and creator) of software. DRM, app stores, subscription models, SaaS... I would burn all of these things to ground if I could
- SCHiM 6y ago
  Grew up reading Phrack too. Work as pentester these days. I understand code deeply, and have tried my hand at everything from memory corruption exploits to javascript SPA apps. I hate technology more and more. It's moving in the wrong direction. Almost everything technological seems to be used to increase control over individuals, extract money, track or predict. No company can seem to withstand the lure and the power that comes from controlling, analyzing and aggressively tracking users. Every traditional device that works just fine, now only has 'smart' alternatives available. The only value-add for the consumer appears to be that I can use my smartphone as the thermostat remote. The value for the energy company seems to be to better predict when to raise prices and bill & track me.
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    I think you can simplify this entire thread into: Software that's built with money, keeps making design decisions that increase profit. Software that's built ambivalent to money, makes other design decisions. Most software is built with money. The only thing that feels like it will fix this is a software/hardware bill of rights. E.g. right to repair, right to source, etc. Otherwise, things will get more exploitive, as products get cheaper.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      Frankly, any discussion about this invariably becomes a critique of capitalism. If you further generalize “software” to “organization”, your examples would include the various decisions companies make to increase profit: polluting, exploiting their workers, etc. At some point, we just have to acknowledge that a free market simply does not work.
      - ethbr0 6y ago
        A free market is extremely efficient at some things. It's also extremely terrible at other things. Of all the options, a free market with regulation to internalize social externalities seems the optimal solution.
tenebrisalietum 6y ago
Hackers in the classical sense don't like being part of an authoritarian structure. What do you do when the technological world that you may have had a hand in creating turns on you, when technology and computing becomes an enslavement rather than a liberation? It makes sense for hackers to then find freedom without technology.
klyrs 6y ago
I'm a Luddite and a luddite. There's a distinction that folks fail to make: in my jargon, a Luddite opposes the automation of labor without a plan to support the displaced laborers (as the followers of Ludd), and a luddite opposes the use of technology (a perverse interpretation of Ludd as an opponent of technology) I automate all kinds of stuff for my job, of course; I'm a cyborg and my brain works better when I can offload processing to a CPU. When I make design decisions that impact laborers at my company, that's something I think a lot about -- if it can make their job less harmful (in terms of RSI, etc), that's great; if I'm going to put somebody out of work, I'll reconsider telling my boss about an option I see. But lots of tech is totally out of my control. IOT bugs the hell out of me, especially with everything phoning home. I hate that people willingly allow google, amazon, apple, tesla and onstar to straight up listen to every word that's said in their house/car. Hell, I don't even like cars made after the 80s. When I grew up, there were people who reliably knew how everything in the pedestrian world worked, and could generally be counted on to fix anything that broke (except perhaps RF electronics, people specialize in that because big caps go brrr). But today, pretty much everything is unfixable; even furniture is mostly ikea or (somehow) lesser-quality pressboard crap. So to me, saying that hackers are the new luddites is a statement about control. We want to own the objects we buy. We want to hack them, fix them, repurpose them. I'm in a relative minority on the labor theory thing
- Rule35 6y ago
  > I'm a Luddite and a luddite. There's a distinction that folks fail to make: in my jargon, a Luddite opposes the automation of labor without a plan to support the displaced laborers (as the followers of Ludd) Being aware of the effects of automation seems wise. My problem with Ludditism as a philosophy is that it seems to focus anger on the businesses that created the jobs in the first place rather than focusing energy on the government (ie, the people) making more jobs. Why does offering someone something become a promise to keep doing so?