6 ms·

Frog skin cells turned themselves into living machines

54 points by tartoran 6y ago

mensetmanusman 6y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenobot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenobot The term comes from the genus of the frog: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_clawed_frog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_clawed_frog It joins the list of things that we argue about whether it is alive: https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-is-life-its-vast-diversity-defies-easy-definition-20210309/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-is-life-its-vast-diversi...
echelon 6y ago
Biology is going to have its technological leap forward when we start to use cells and whole organisms as the machines they are. Cells are no different than the stored programs concept that kicked off modern computing. They're machines that encode and run themselves. They manufacture useful resources: insulin, antibodies, heart tissue, etc. The same applies at the organismal level. Once we get into regenerative cloning, we'll have an unlimited supply of blood for transfusions, organs for those needing transplants, and a research test bed that is orders of magnitude better than the methods we use today. What I'm getting at is that we'll eventually create monoclonal brainless humans. Turn off brain development or surgically remove the brain during early development. Without a brain, these thoughtless bodies are not persons and are 100% ethical resources to use for the betterment of mankind. We'd be growing plant versions of higher level human tissues, and that unlocks so much new potential. You'd probably birth them in chimeric pig uteruses until something wholly artificial is developed. You keep alive artificially through mechanical innervation and "life support". This requires a lot of research and development, but we're not that far off. Different lines could be developed for studying certain cancers. When you can reproduce cancer and study it repeatedly at the organismal level, you can develop novel strategies for detection and clearance. We could make so much more progress. The "transplant" lines would lack HLA markers that cause tissue rejection, making their tissues safe for transplant into anyone. Nobody would need to take life-altering immunosuppressants ever again. We could probably start replacing thymuses and other tissues that deplete over time, potentially regenerating youth in humans and extending lifespan dramatically. Biology is an evolved machine. We should start treating it as such. Then we'll truly be advanced.
- temp0826 6y ago
  >> Without a brain, these thoughtless bodies are not persons and are 100% ethical resources to use for the betterment of mankind. Is this not slightly dubious or debatable? One might consider their heart to be their center, or the seat of their soul. I do think there is a lot of opportunity along these lines. Our ethics haven't quite evolved enough for me to not wince at that paragraph though. Not saying we can't get there, of course
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Is there a ghost in the machine without/with a brain? ;)
- samus 6y ago
  Breeding brainless humans still raises as much ethical questions as abortion and cloning does. Eliminating the potential for brain development deprives my clone of a possibility of independent existence just as much as abortion does. Also, it's debatable whether it is ethical to decide differently between the fate of my clone and of my conventional offspring. My clone carries my DNA, but I'd argue it would grow up to become a rather different person than me. Even in a jurisdiction where abortion is legal, these above considerations cannot be considered to be clarified. Abortion represents a certain stance about the tradeoff between the rights of mothers regarding their bodies and of the fetus's right to live. The former completely disappears if the brainless clone is grown in a vat. It is replaced by the original's desire for health and a long life.
  - echelon 6y ago
    > Eliminating the potential for brain development deprives my clone of a possibility of independent existence just as much as abortion does. This is a silly argument. Not reproducing during every ovulation and spermatogenesis cycle does the same. Likewise in your argument, cutting someone that is braindead from life support could be depriving them. Persons come about through learning and experience. Cells alone aren't persons.
    - samus 6y ago
samus 6y ago
The article calls out the researchers that they were acting carelessly, for such experiments carry severe ethical questions. However, I am actually glad that the researchers carried out these experiments with frog cells instead of human cells.
- echelon 6y ago
  We should be doing this with human cells. There's so much to learn and gain. I've made a post in this thread about the extent to which we should take this manner of research.
beefman 6y ago
Quanta article on this, also from March 31: https://www.quantamagazine.org/cells-form-into-xenobots-on-their-own-20210331/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/cells-form-into-xenobots-on-t...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
albybisy 6y ago
biotech is the missing piece that humans need to develop "life forms" to explore and colonize the universe.
tmabraham 6y ago
For reference, here is the actual journal paper: https://robotics.sciencemag.org/content/6/52/eabf1571 https://robotics.sciencemag.org/content/6/52/eabf1571 Also, I think this is the first paper on this topic: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/4/1853 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/4/1853
adwi 6y ago
Now that’s how you write a headline
flobosg 6y ago
Speaking of Michael Levin, I find this lecture of his fascinating: What Bodies Think About: Bioelectric Computation Outside the Nervous System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg
- inventtheday 6y ago
  yeah this was one of the most mind-blowing things i ever watched when it first came out
- ve55 6y ago
  For those that enjoyed this (and it is quite amazing), here is a similar keynote lecture from the same person, but a bit more recent and with a few other very interesting notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L43-XE1uwWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L43-XE1uwWc

54 points by tartoran 6y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenobot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenobot The term comes from the genus of the frog: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_clawed_frog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_clawed_frog It joins the list of things that we argue about whether it is alive: https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-is-life-its-vast-diversity-defies-easy-definition-20210309/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-is-life-its-vast-diversi...

echelon 6y ago

Biology is going to have its technological leap forward when we start to use cells and whole organisms as the machines they are. Cells are no different than the stored programs concept that kicked off modern computing. They're machines that encode and run themselves. They manufacture useful resources: insulin, antibodies, heart tissue, etc. The same applies at the organismal level. Once we get into regenerative cloning, we'll have an unlimited supply of blood for transfusions, organs for those needing transplants, and a research test bed that is orders of magnitude better than the methods we use today. What I'm getting at is that we'll eventually create monoclonal brainless humans. Turn off brain development or surgically remove the brain during early development. Without a brain, these thoughtless bodies are not persons and are 100% ethical resources to use for the betterment of mankind. We'd be growing plant versions of higher level human tissues, and that unlocks so much new potential. You'd probably birth them in chimeric pig uteruses until something wholly artificial is developed. You keep alive artificially through mechanical innervation and "life support". This requires a lot of research and development, but we're not that far off. Different lines could be developed for studying certain cancers. When you can reproduce cancer and study it repeatedly at the organismal level, you can develop novel strategies for detection and clearance. We could make so much more progress. The "transplant" lines would lack HLA markers that cause tissue rejection, making their tissues safe for transplant into anyone. Nobody would need to take life-altering immunosuppressants ever again. We could probably start replacing thymuses and other tissues that deplete over time, potentially regenerating youth in humans and extending lifespan dramatically. Biology is an evolved machine. We should start treating it as such. Then we'll truly be advanced.

temp0826 6y ago
>> Without a brain, these thoughtless bodies are not persons and are 100% ethical resources to use for the betterment of mankind. Is this not slightly dubious or debatable? One might consider their heart to be their center, or the seat of their soul. I do think there is a lot of opportunity along these lines. Our ethics haven't quite evolved enough for me to not wince at that paragraph though. Not saying we can't get there, of course
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Is there a ghost in the machine without/with a brain? ;)
samus 6y ago
Breeding brainless humans still raises as much ethical questions as abortion and cloning does. Eliminating the potential for brain development deprives my clone of a possibility of independent existence just as much as abortion does. Also, it's debatable whether it is ethical to decide differently between the fate of my clone and of my conventional offspring. My clone carries my DNA, but I'd argue it would grow up to become a rather different person than me. Even in a jurisdiction where abortion is legal, these above considerations cannot be considered to be clarified. Abortion represents a certain stance about the tradeoff between the rights of mothers regarding their bodies and of the fetus's right to live. The former completely disappears if the brainless clone is grown in a vat. It is replaced by the original's desire for health and a long life.
- echelon 6y ago
  > Eliminating the potential for brain development deprives my clone of a possibility of independent existence just as much as abortion does. This is a silly argument. Not reproducing during every ovulation and spermatogenesis cycle does the same. Likewise in your argument, cutting someone that is braindead from life support could be depriving them. Persons come about through learning and experience. Cells alone aren't persons.
  - samus 6y ago

samus 6y ago

The article calls out the researchers that they were acting carelessly, for such experiments carry severe ethical questions. However, I am actually glad that the researchers carried out these experiments with frog cells instead of human cells.

echelon 6y ago
We should be doing this with human cells. There's so much to learn and gain. I've made a post in this thread about the extent to which we should take this manner of research.

beefman 6y ago

Quanta article on this, also from March 31: https://www.quantamagazine.org/cells-form-into-xenobots-on-their-own-20210331/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/cells-form-into-xenobots-on-t...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

albybisy 6y ago

biotech is the missing piece that humans need to develop "life forms" to explore and colonize the universe.

tmabraham 6y ago

For reference, here is the actual journal paper: https://robotics.sciencemag.org/content/6/52/eabf1571 https://robotics.sciencemag.org/content/6/52/eabf1571 Also, I think this is the first paper on this topic: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/4/1853 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/4/1853

adwi 6y ago

Now that’s how you write a headline

flobosg 6y ago

Speaking of Michael Levin, I find this lecture of his fascinating: What Bodies Think About: Bioelectric Computation Outside the Nervous System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjD1aLm4Thg

inventtheday 6y ago
yeah this was one of the most mind-blowing things i ever watched when it first came out
ve55 6y ago
For those that enjoyed this (and it is quite amazing), here is a similar keynote lecture from the same person, but a bit more recent and with a few other very interesting notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L43-XE1uwWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L43-XE1uwWc