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Another interesting comment from the thread: > 4. Regarding morality. This letter (like many other sjw creatures) says many words about morality, diversity, bu

Another interesting comment from the thread: > 4. Regarding morality. This letter (like many other sjw creatures) says many words about morality, diversity, but at the end of the day it boils down to removing Stallman from position. As a citizen of post-soviet country I can vividly see that this letter is enterely about politics and looks very similar to communist agenda which likes to hide authoritarian policies behind morality. It is very surprising for people from former Soviet block countries to see western world falling into 'very familiar' but notorious propaganda. I believe it's not something specific to communism but to human nature. People in power tend to have low tolerance towards opposing views and perceive them as a threat. Hence the 'you are either with us or against us' attitude, both from the left and right. In the end, people with more balanced views, or with no particular opinion on a give issue, seem to be in minority and as a consequence are afraid to speak up. This strengthens the position of those who have an axe to grind - it's a vicious circle.

betterdedthnred 6y ago
It isn't unique to Communism however this sort of thing always appears in Communist societies, without fail, as with all radical utopian ideologies. Now someone tell me that wasn't real Communism or that I'm actually taking about Socialism, I'll wait
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
This is preposterous. Removing a serially abusive person from a position of power is in no way soviet style authoritarianism, and has absolutely nothing to do with communism or capitalism. This is a private organization removing someone for poor behavior according to their own bylaws. It is not somehow a symbol for the fall of liberal capitalism in the US. Please. People are removed from boards and committees for poor behavior all the time. The sky does not fall.
- roenxi 6y ago
  The accusations that Stallman is a 'serial abuser' are strictly innuendo at this point. The flow of his detractors is one of wilful misinterpretation and unreasonableness. Removing Stallman isn't an economic decision, true enough. But it is the same hubris of believing that someone's political trappings and status should determine their influence on technical matters. The Free Software community can survive without Stallman. But it is extremely worrying if the Free Software community feels Stallman is so at odds with their mission that they want to cast him out. Stallman has flaws, but his commitment to that cause is really beyond question. It is appropriate to give him a voice in deciding how these projects are run. He is a reliable lighthouse for working out what is and isn't free about software.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    Have you actually talked with anyone at MIT CS, particularly women? It's in no way innuendo to claim Stallman is a serial harasser towards women and behaves in an angry and abusive manner towards anyone he deems inferior, which is most people. Stallman and Free Software have been explicitly political from the start. Stallman hasn't made any technical contribution in decades, and honestly, hasn't been relevant coding wise since the late 90s. He was put on the GCC committee as a political symbol, not a technical leader. That symbol is now toxic to GCC's mission due to Stallman's volitional behavior.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      > and behaves in an angry and abusive manner towards anyone he deems inferior, which is most people. This statements is simply not true. I had several exchanges and communications with Stallman, private and official. It was clear to him that I am less knowledgeable than him and less competent in the areas we discussed. But he never showed any of the traits you mention, the opposite was true. He was very patient and explained things to me without patronizing. I also observed his behavior towards others, it was similar (even though I found his hygiene habits highly objectionable).
      - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
        That he treated you nicely, does not mean he does this universally. For him the contempt is less about intelligence or competence and more about his extremely rigid world view. When he's surrounded by his admirers of course he doesn't do it. But when someone turns down his lascivious advances or offends one of his random moral positions he behaves entirely differently. But I mean, you can just go read the guys blog for content that would clearly bar him from ever holding a position of influence within most corporate businesses. No one wants an evangelist/spokesperson that is blogging about how "voluntary" pedophilia should not be a crime. No one is canceling Stallman unfairly. What's getting canceled is a free pass he never should have been granted in the first place about this behavior.
        6y ago
bjourne 6y ago
The stated reason for removing Stallman is the belief that he is "toxic". You may disagree with that but it has nothing to do with Stallman's political views.
- gallier2 6y ago
  Declaration of toxicity is purest politic rhetoric, you knob.
  - dang 6y ago
    Swipes like that will get you banned on HN, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here. I took a quick look at your account history (standard moderation practice) and was pleased to see that most of your comments are excellent, so fortunately this shouldn't be difficult to fix.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  That's correct; what I mean is that in cases like these you are not allowed to sit on the fence. Orgs like FSF, Red Hat/IBM, GCC SC are under enormous pressure. They are being told that if they do nothing then it basically means they are supporting Stallman ("the defender of Epstein!" "pedophile apologist!"). So in a way they have no choice, they have to give in. Frankly, I've seen in my life several "coups" like this. There is a great rage, people feel fed up and overthrow the leader. There is a moment of excitement, then the dust settles and what remains is a bland void. The enthusiasm disappears, it turns out that charisma is not easy to replace, and the whole projects slowly withers into total insignificance.
- finikytou 6y ago
  yeah. you will see the first time you get fired from a job. they will surely give you a valid reason that make sense without any hidden agenda. Or maybe they will ask your colleagues and investigate to find anything they can use against you to remove you, call you toxic and make it a day
- 6y ago
tptacek 6y ago
Note that this is a comment from someone who does not appear to have contributed to GCC.

betterdedthnred 6y ago

It isn't unique to Communism however this sort of thing always appears in Communist societies, without fail, as with all radical utopian ideologies. Now someone tell me that wasn't real Communism or that I'm actually taking about Socialism, I'll wait

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago

This is preposterous. Removing a serially abusive person from a position of power is in no way soviet style authoritarianism, and has absolutely nothing to do with communism or capitalism. This is a private organization removing someone for poor behavior according to their own bylaws. It is not somehow a symbol for the fall of liberal capitalism in the US. Please. People are removed from boards and committees for poor behavior all the time. The sky does not fall.

roenxi 6y ago
The accusations that Stallman is a 'serial abuser' are strictly innuendo at this point. The flow of his detractors is one of wilful misinterpretation and unreasonableness. Removing Stallman isn't an economic decision, true enough. But it is the same hubris of believing that someone's political trappings and status should determine their influence on technical matters. The Free Software community can survive without Stallman. But it is extremely worrying if the Free Software community feels Stallman is so at odds with their mission that they want to cast him out. Stallman has flaws, but his commitment to that cause is really beyond question. It is appropriate to give him a voice in deciding how these projects are run. He is a reliable lighthouse for working out what is and isn't free about software.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  Have you actually talked with anyone at MIT CS, particularly women? It's in no way innuendo to claim Stallman is a serial harasser towards women and behaves in an angry and abusive manner towards anyone he deems inferior, which is most people. Stallman and Free Software have been explicitly political from the start. Stallman hasn't made any technical contribution in decades, and honestly, hasn't been relevant coding wise since the late 90s. He was put on the GCC committee as a political symbol, not a technical leader. That symbol is now toxic to GCC's mission due to Stallman's volitional behavior.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    > and behaves in an angry and abusive manner towards anyone he deems inferior, which is most people. This statements is simply not true. I had several exchanges and communications with Stallman, private and official. It was clear to him that I am less knowledgeable than him and less competent in the areas we discussed. But he never showed any of the traits you mention, the opposite was true. He was very patient and explained things to me without patronizing. I also observed his behavior towards others, it was similar (even though I found his hygiene habits highly objectionable).
    - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
      That he treated you nicely, does not mean he does this universally. For him the contempt is less about intelligence or competence and more about his extremely rigid world view. When he's surrounded by his admirers of course he doesn't do it. But when someone turns down his lascivious advances or offends one of his random moral positions he behaves entirely differently. But I mean, you can just go read the guys blog for content that would clearly bar him from ever holding a position of influence within most corporate businesses. No one wants an evangelist/spokesperson that is blogging about how "voluntary" pedophilia should not be a crime. No one is canceling Stallman unfairly. What's getting canceled is a free pass he never should have been granted in the first place about this behavior.
      - 6y ago

bjourne 6y ago

The stated reason for removing Stallman is the belief that he is "toxic". You may disagree with that but it has nothing to do with Stallman's political views.

gallier2 6y ago
Declaration of toxicity is purest politic rhetoric, you knob.
- dang 6y ago
  Swipes like that will get you banned on HN, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here. I took a quick look at your account history (standard moderation practice) and was pleased to see that most of your comments are excellent, so fortunately this shouldn't be difficult to fix.
dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
That's correct; what I mean is that in cases like these you are not allowed to sit on the fence. Orgs like FSF, Red Hat/IBM, GCC SC are under enormous pressure. They are being told that if they do nothing then it basically means they are supporting Stallman ("the defender of Epstein!" "pedophile apologist!"). So in a way they have no choice, they have to give in. Frankly, I've seen in my life several "coups" like this. There is a great rage, people feel fed up and overthrow the leader. There is a moment of excitement, then the dust settles and what remains is a bland void. The enthusiasm disappears, it turns out that charisma is not easy to replace, and the whole projects slowly withers into total insignificance.
finikytou 6y ago
yeah. you will see the first time you get fired from a job. they will surely give you a valid reason that make sense without any hidden agenda. Or maybe they will ask your colleagues and investigate to find anything they can use against you to remove you, call you toxic and make it a day
6y ago

tptacek 6y ago

Note that this is a comment from someone who does not appear to have contributed to GCC.