5 ms·

Already GPLv3 infected.... But fun-fact: >The GCC Steering Committee is committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless

by nix23 6y ago

Already GPLv3 infected.... But fun-fact: >The GCC Steering Committee is committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disabilities, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, ethnicity, nationality, race, age, religion, or similar personal characteristics.

logicchains 6y ago
Sounds like GCC is going to go down the same path as the Gnome Foundation, focusing on pursuing a political agenda at the expense of developing quality software.
- skj 6y ago
  Ah yes, because welcoming all regardless of irrelevant background details precludes quality software.
  - ahefner 6y ago
    All minus one, apparently.
    - skj 6y ago
      Yes, individuals who cause problems and generally abuse their colleagues should be excluded. <Insert identity selection here> should not be.
  - s9w 6y ago
    "Welcome" the world and actually being welcoming have no correlation with one another anymore. The more "tolerant" an organization or human claims itself to be, the less to they often are in practice.
  - rainyMammoth 6y ago
    you don't seen to realize the irony that under the appearance of "being welcoming", those committees are only welcoming to whoever complies with their political agenda.
    - valgor 6y ago
      That is just another form of the tolerance paradox. And the conclusion of that would say, yes, only welcome people that are socially open minded people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
      - logicchains 6y ago
        That stops applying when the meaning of "socially open minded" is broadened so much that opposing children being irreversibly sterilised without their parents' consent is considered closed-minded.
      - rainyMammoth 6y ago
        I don't think that's it. What is happening is a compliance test. You are only tolerated if you agree and comply with the woke politics of the day.
    - nix23 6y ago
      Your totally right, but then they write: >safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression.... So it's for all but not for you (RMS)... ;)
    - skj 6y ago
      Calling "freedom to be yourself" a political idea is really sad and pathetic.
- arkitaip 6y ago
  Amazing that you don't understand that GCC and Gnome are profoundly political organizations.
  - disposekinetics 6y ago
    They were always political but now they're engaging in politics orthogonal to their stated goal.
    - arkitaip 6y ago
      How so? Surely you just mean politics the you don't agree with.
      - disposekinetics 6y ago
        It is like code of conducts, prior people on both sides could work together. By picking a side on an issue that has nothing to do with a given project you alienate half of your potential developers. Nothing about developing an open-source compiler implies anything but developing an open-source compiler.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  GNU is a political agenda. Developing software is just a means of advancing it. The change here isn't that the organization is becoming political, it's that the organization's politics are becoming increasingly intersectional.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Realized it might be worth providing a concrete example. So here that is -- The GNU Manifesto has a whole section, "Why GNU will be compatible with Unix", that briefly explains why RMS chose Unix. In it, he fairly explicitly states that Unix is not his ideal software system, but it's a good choice for advancing GNU's political goals. In other words, the politics are considered at least as important as, and perhaps more important than, developing quality software.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  In a couple of decades we will be back to public domain and shareware software models, while a couple of people will get some money selling books and conference talks about the golden age of FOSS. It is bound to happen to any movement that outgrowns its grassroots, while those that achieve their positions thanks to the movement betray it.
  - tln750 6y ago
    It is becoming more and more dispiriting to see how FOSS is used to build massive empires of surveillance which gather oceans of private data with almost no oversight. And the strategy that has become well-established now is to build a 'product' using FOSS and then lock them up behind a bootloader or a key. Rampant proliferation of binary modules built on top of the Linux kernel are simply not addressed because of fear that it might drive away companies. But how is it fair to all the people that play by the rules and contribute code because Linux uses GPL ? The situation in routers is pretty much the same regarding binary modules, and locked down devices are becoming the norm now.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Most of the inquisitors would be using a proper UNIX hadn't been for him, see how far the BSDs have done and how much gets given to upstream.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  It already has gone down the path. One of the more notable advancements in the past decade or so is the increase in language tooling that isn't strictly related to compilation: improved static analysis tools, language servers, formatters, etc. These require high-quality ASTs to get correct, and for C/C++ especially, you need to have the AST backed by a codegen somewhere to know you got it correct. Yet GCC has resisted adding support for this, because of fears that it would make it easier to subvert the GPL, à la Dragonegg.
prepend 6y ago
I think it’s interesting to see this list get longer year by year. It’s good to have an ideal of welcoming, but curious to me what particular characteristics are “list worthy.” It reminds me when those people raise their hand in a talk and say “what about security” and aren’t happy until you add the word “security.” Comically, even if nothing in the content is changed. Just adding the word makes them happy and I found it interesting that they didn’t actually assess whether the project was secure and obviously nothing changed except for a label so it was unusual to me that they would be happy since the security posture didn’t change at all.
- brandmeyer 6y ago
  In some ways, it doesn't get longer. I've never seen a list that was well-aligned with US employment anti-discrimination law. There's always a handful of categories that are missing.
- nix23 6y ago
  >It reminds me when those people raise their hand in a talk and say “what about security” and aren’t happy until you add the word “security.” Haha true, my mind always translate it to "but what about the children's".
- betterdedthnred 6y ago
  The list is every growing because the list is defined by intersections of oppression as laid out by the concept of intersectionality as defined in the academic field of Critical Theory That's why the Biden Administration recently added "gender identity" to the definition of sex as it pertains to segregated spaces reserved for women ie battered womens' shelters and sports leagues, to allow biological males to enter and act as women as long as they choose to present as, or "identify as" in the Theory jargon everyone is familiar with, women. Gender identity is the latest axis of oppression added to the intersectionalist hierarchy of oppression When it's played out, the activist-industrial complex will need something new, like body acceptance, to move on to in order to keep the donations flowing These organizations are why suddenly you can't start a new repo without making a political decision anymore, because they're the ones driving fabricated "controversies" over things like master branches It's a rabbit hole. Look up Critical Theory if you don't know what it is. It might be the most popular religion in America today, and it's definitely the most popular religion that pretends to be common sense, science, or obvious decency. But it's a religion, frankly, with all the caveats that entails. It's based on faith and there's a whole belief system and way of being that one is supposed to adopt along with the Critical worldview "Do better" Avoid "problematic" things Fight "whiteness" Apologize for your "privilege" (original sin) Repeat the mantra "black lives matter," and put it on your documentation pages If you do something wrong, struggle session followed by shunning (cancel culture), which is a common punishment in religious communities It has high priests like Ibrahim Kendi Etc... Now downvote me, believers! I'll die before I adopt this racist godless faith
b0sk 6y ago
Ah. The Paradox of Tolerance defense. "If my intolerance is not allowed, are you folks really tolerant?" https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*TnDoAk0BjC7x4OuBISbYCw.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*TnDoAk0BjC7x4OuBISbYCw.jp...
- lamp987 6y ago
  this is a very ignorant misrepresentation of what popper said btw. he would disagree heavily.

by nix23 6y ago

logicchains 6y ago

Sounds like GCC is going to go down the same path as the Gnome Foundation, focusing on pursuing a political agenda at the expense of developing quality software.

skj 6y ago
Ah yes, because welcoming all regardless of irrelevant background details precludes quality software.
- ahefner 6y ago
  All minus one, apparently.
  - skj 6y ago
    Yes, individuals who cause problems and generally abuse their colleagues should be excluded. <Insert identity selection here> should not be.
- s9w 6y ago
  "Welcome" the world and actually being welcoming have no correlation with one another anymore. The more "tolerant" an organization or human claims itself to be, the less to they often are in practice.
- rainyMammoth 6y ago
  you don't seen to realize the irony that under the appearance of "being welcoming", those committees are only welcoming to whoever complies with their political agenda.
  - valgor 6y ago
    That is just another form of the tolerance paradox. And the conclusion of that would say, yes, only welcome people that are socially open minded people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
    - logicchains 6y ago
      That stops applying when the meaning of "socially open minded" is broadened so much that opposing children being irreversibly sterilised without their parents' consent is considered closed-minded.
    - rainyMammoth 6y ago
      I don't think that's it. What is happening is a compliance test. You are only tolerated if you agree and comply with the woke politics of the day.
  - nix23 6y ago
    Your totally right, but then they write: >safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression.... So it's for all but not for you (RMS)... ;)
  - skj 6y ago
    Calling "freedom to be yourself" a political idea is really sad and pathetic.
arkitaip 6y ago
Amazing that you don't understand that GCC and Gnome are profoundly political organizations.
- disposekinetics 6y ago
  They were always political but now they're engaging in politics orthogonal to their stated goal.
  - arkitaip 6y ago
    How so? Surely you just mean politics the you don't agree with.
    - disposekinetics 6y ago
      It is like code of conducts, prior people on both sides could work together. By picking a side on an issue that has nothing to do with a given project you alienate half of your potential developers. Nothing about developing an open-source compiler implies anything but developing an open-source compiler.
mumblemumble 6y ago
GNU is a political agenda. Developing software is just a means of advancing it. The change here isn't that the organization is becoming political, it's that the organization's politics are becoming increasingly intersectional.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  Realized it might be worth providing a concrete example. So here that is -- The GNU Manifesto has a whole section, "Why GNU will be compatible with Unix", that briefly explains why RMS chose Unix. In it, he fairly explicitly states that Unix is not his ideal software system, but it's a good choice for advancing GNU's political goals. In other words, the politics are considered at least as important as, and perhaps more important than, developing quality software.
pjmlp 6y ago
In a couple of decades we will be back to public domain and shareware software models, while a couple of people will get some money selling books and conference talks about the golden age of FOSS. It is bound to happen to any movement that outgrowns its grassroots, while those that achieve their positions thanks to the movement betray it.
- tln750 6y ago
  It is becoming more and more dispiriting to see how FOSS is used to build massive empires of surveillance which gather oceans of private data with almost no oversight. And the strategy that has become well-established now is to build a 'product' using FOSS and then lock them up behind a bootloader or a key. Rampant proliferation of binary modules built on top of the Linux kernel are simply not addressed because of fear that it might drive away companies. But how is it fair to all the people that play by the rules and contribute code because Linux uses GPL ? The situation in routers is pretty much the same regarding binary modules, and locked down devices are becoming the norm now.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Most of the inquisitors would be using a proper UNIX hadn't been for him, see how far the BSDs have done and how much gets given to upstream.
jcranmer 6y ago
It already has gone down the path. One of the more notable advancements in the past decade or so is the increase in language tooling that isn't strictly related to compilation: improved static analysis tools, language servers, formatters, etc. These require high-quality ASTs to get correct, and for C/C++ especially, you need to have the AST backed by a codegen somewhere to know you got it correct. Yet GCC has resisted adding support for this, because of fears that it would make it easier to subvert the GPL, à la Dragonegg.

prepend 6y ago

I think it’s interesting to see this list get longer year by year. It’s good to have an ideal of welcoming, but curious to me what particular characteristics are “list worthy.” It reminds me when those people raise their hand in a talk and say “what about security” and aren’t happy until you add the word “security.” Comically, even if nothing in the content is changed. Just adding the word makes them happy and I found it interesting that they didn’t actually assess whether the project was secure and obviously nothing changed except for a label so it was unusual to me that they would be happy since the security posture didn’t change at all.

brandmeyer 6y ago
In some ways, it doesn't get longer. I've never seen a list that was well-aligned with US employment anti-discrimination law. There's always a handful of categories that are missing.
nix23 6y ago
>It reminds me when those people raise their hand in a talk and say “what about security” and aren’t happy until you add the word “security.” Haha true, my mind always translate it to "but what about the children's".
betterdedthnred 6y ago
The list is every growing because the list is defined by intersections of oppression as laid out by the concept of intersectionality as defined in the academic field of Critical Theory That's why the Biden Administration recently added "gender identity" to the definition of sex as it pertains to segregated spaces reserved for women ie battered womens' shelters and sports leagues, to allow biological males to enter and act as women as long as they choose to present as, or "identify as" in the Theory jargon everyone is familiar with, women. Gender identity is the latest axis of oppression added to the intersectionalist hierarchy of oppression When it's played out, the activist-industrial complex will need something new, like body acceptance, to move on to in order to keep the donations flowing These organizations are why suddenly you can't start a new repo without making a political decision anymore, because they're the ones driving fabricated "controversies" over things like master branches It's a rabbit hole. Look up Critical Theory if you don't know what it is. It might be the most popular religion in America today, and it's definitely the most popular religion that pretends to be common sense, science, or obvious decency. But it's a religion, frankly, with all the caveats that entails. It's based on faith and there's a whole belief system and way of being that one is supposed to adopt along with the Critical worldview "Do better" Avoid "problematic" things Fight "whiteness" Apologize for your "privilege" (original sin) Repeat the mantra "black lives matter," and put it on your documentation pages If you do something wrong, struggle session followed by shunning (cancel culture), which is a common punishment in religious communities It has high priests like Ibrahim Kendi Etc... Now downvote me, believers! I'll die before I adopt this racist godless faith

b0sk 6y ago

Ah. The Paradox of Tolerance defense. "If my intolerance is not allowed, are you folks really tolerant?" https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*TnDoAk0BjC7x4OuBISbYCw.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*TnDoAk0BjC7x4OuBISbYCw.jp...

lamp987 6y ago
this is a very ignorant misrepresentation of what popper said btw. he would disagree heavily.