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Richard Stallman Removed from the GCC Steering Committee
- bigbillheck 6y agoShould have been done after the exporting AST debacle.
- hutrdvnj 6y agoBetter late than never.
- nix23 6y agoAlready GPLv3 infected.... But fun-fact: >The GCC Steering Committee is committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disabilities, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, ethnicity, nationality, race, age, religion, or similar personal characteristics.
- logicchains 6y agoSounds like GCC is going to go down the same path as the Gnome Foundation, focusing on pursuing a political agenda at the expense of developing quality software.
- skj 6y agoAh yes, because welcoming all regardless of irrelevant background details precludes quality software.
- ahefner 6y agoAll minus one, apparently.
- skj 6y agoYes, individuals who cause problems and generally abuse their colleagues should be excluded. <Insert identity selection here> should not be.
- s9w 6y ago"Welcome" the world and actually being welcoming have no correlation with one another anymore. The more "tolerant" an organization or human claims itself to be, the less to they often are in practice.
- rainyMammoth 6y agoyou don't seen to realize the irony that under the appearance of "being welcoming", those committees are only welcoming to whoever complies with their political agenda.
- valgor 6y agoThat is just another form of the tolerance paradox. And the conclusion of that would say, yes, only welcome people that are socially open minded people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- logicchains 6y agoThat stops applying when the meaning of "socially open minded" is broadened so much that opposing children being irreversibly sterilised without their parents' consent is considered closed-minded.
- rainyMammoth 6y agoI don't think that's it. What is happening is a compliance test. You are only tolerated if you agree and comply with the woke politics of the day.
- nix23 6y agoYour totally right, but then they write: >safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender identity and expression.... So it's for all but not for you (RMS)... ;)
- skj 6y agoCalling "freedom to be yourself" a political idea is really sad and pathetic.
- arkitaip 6y agoAmazing that you don't understand that GCC and Gnome are profoundly political organizations.
- disposekinetics 6y agoThey were always political but now they're engaging in politics orthogonal to their stated goal.
- arkitaip 6y agoHow so? Surely you just mean politics the you don't agree with.
- disposekinetics 6y agoIt is like code of conducts, prior people on both sides could work together. By picking a side on an issue that has nothing to do with a given project you alienate half of your potential developers. Nothing about developing an open-source compiler implies anything but developing an open-source compiler.
- mumblemumble 6y agoGNU is a political agenda. Developing software is just a means of advancing it. The change here isn't that the organization is becoming political, it's that the organization's politics are becoming increasingly intersectional.
- mumblemumble 6y agoRealized it might be worth providing a concrete example. So here that is -- The GNU Manifesto has a whole section, "Why GNU will be compatible with Unix", that briefly explains why RMS chose Unix. In it, he fairly explicitly states that Unix is not his ideal software system, but it's a good choice for advancing GNU's political goals. In other words, the politics are considered at least as important as, and perhaps more important than, developing quality software.
- pjmlp 6y agoIn a couple of decades we will be back to public domain and shareware software models, while a couple of people will get some money selling books and conference talks about the golden age of FOSS. It is bound to happen to any movement that outgrowns its grassroots, while those that achieve their positions thanks to the movement betray it.
- tln750 6y agoIt is becoming more and more dispiriting to see how FOSS is used to build massive empires of surveillance which gather oceans of private data with almost no oversight. And the strategy that has become well-established now is to build a 'product' using FOSS and then lock them up behind a bootloader or a key. Rampant proliferation of binary modules built on top of the Linux kernel are simply not addressed because of fear that it might drive away companies. But how is it fair to all the people that play by the rules and contribute code because Linux uses GPL ? The situation in routers is pretty much the same regarding binary modules, and locked down devices are becoming the norm now.
- pjmlp 6y agoMost of the inquisitors would be using a proper UNIX hadn't been for him, see how far the BSDs have done and how much gets given to upstream.
- jcranmer 6y agoIt already has gone down the path. One of the more notable advancements in the past decade or so is the increase in language tooling that isn't strictly related to compilation: improved static analysis tools, language servers, formatters, etc. These require high-quality ASTs to get correct, and for C/C++ especially, you need to have the AST backed by a codegen somewhere to know you got it correct. Yet GCC has resisted adding support for this, because of fears that it would make it easier to subvert the GPL, à la Dragonegg.
- prepend 6y agoI think it’s interesting to see this list get longer year by year. It’s good to have an ideal of welcoming, but curious to me what particular characteristics are “list worthy.” It reminds me when those people raise their hand in a talk and say “what about security” and aren’t happy until you add the word “security.” Comically, even if nothing in the content is changed. Just adding the word makes them happy and I found it interesting that they didn’t actually assess whether the project was secure and obviously nothing changed except for a label so it was unusual to me that they would be happy since the security posture didn’t change at all.
- brandmeyer 6y agoIn some ways, it doesn't get longer. I've never seen a list that was well-aligned with US employment anti-discrimination law. There's always a handful of categories that are missing.
- nix23 6y ago>It reminds me when those people raise their hand in a talk and say “what about security” and aren’t happy until you add the word “security.” Haha true, my mind always translate it to "but what about the children's".
- betterdedthnred 6y agoThe list is every growing because the list is defined by intersections of oppression as laid out by the concept of intersectionality as defined in the academic field of Critical Theory That's why the Biden Administration recently added "gender identity" to the definition of sex as it pertains to segregated spaces reserved for women ie battered womens' shelters and sports leagues, to allow biological males to enter and act as women as long as they choose to present as, or "identify as" in the Theory jargon everyone is familiar with, women. Gender identity is the latest axis of oppression added to the intersectionalist hierarchy of oppression When it's played out, the activist-industrial complex will need something new, like body acceptance, to move on to in order to keep the donations flowing These organizations are why suddenly you can't start a new repo without making a political decision anymore, because they're the ones driving fabricated "controversies" over things like master branches It's a rabbit hole. Look up Critical Theory if you don't know what it is. It might be the most popular religion in America today, and it's definitely the most popular religion that pretends to be common sense, science, or obvious decency. But it's a religion, frankly, with all the caveats that entails. It's based on faith and there's a whole belief system and way of being that one is supposed to adopt along with the Critical worldview "Do better" Avoid "problematic" things Fight "whiteness" Apologize for your "privilege" (original sin) Repeat the mantra "black lives matter," and put it on your documentation pages If you do something wrong, struggle session followed by shunning (cancel culture), which is a common punishment in religious communities It has high priests like Ibrahim Kendi Etc... Now downvote me, believers! I'll die before I adopt this racist godless faith
- b0sk 6y agoAh. The Paradox of Tolerance defense. "If my intolerance is not allowed, are you folks really tolerant?" https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*TnDoAk0BjC7x4OuBISbYCw.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*TnDoAk0BjC7x4OuBISbYCw.jp...
- lamp987 6y agothis is a very ignorant misrepresentation of what popper said btw. he would disagree heavily.
- herodoturtle 6y agoFrom the linked page: > In 2012 RMS was added to the GCC Steering Committee web page based on his role in the GNU Project, though his role as a member of the Steering Committee has been ambiguous and he was not a member of the Steering Committee when EGCS became GCC In this context, the HN title above is somewhat misleading.
- s_Hogg 6y agoAnother reminder that no-one is irreplaceable. I'm sure GCC will continue without him, one way or another.
- Guest42 6y agoTechnically yes, but in his case there is a level of genius and dedication that is beyond expert level. There is also a good chance that potential replacements aren’t available to take on the responsibilities.
- bigbillheck 6y agoPer https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html , Stallman's last code contribution to GCC was in 2003, and before that 1997.
- Guest42 6y agoI viewed it more as a managerial committee akin to a board of directors.
- bigbillheck 6y agoWhat are his managerial contributions? The ones that come to mind are AST export, accepting LLVM, and the lead-up to the EGCS split, none of which were positive.
- lamp987 6y agoit was just a symbolic honorary position. nothing changes.
- mumblemumble 6y agoFrankly, if it couldn't, that would be a serious problem. Speaking for myself, I've got a lot of opinions, many - admittedly not all - of which overlap with the ones outlined in the GNU manifesto. One that may differ is that I'm simply unable to trust a cult of personality. GNU is already dangerously close to that, and I've sometimes wondered if there's cause for splintering off a group that is more firmly centered on Free Software instead of on Richard Stallman.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y agoThe followups are insightful. Eg. this one: https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235183.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235183.html > Porting CLANG would have been easier (to some extent) BUT my choice was political and Stallman in the Steering Committee is a long term warranty that GCC development will not steer away from the Free Software conception that I know, betraying my trust.
- tptacek 6y agoWhen I read this thread a day ago, it consisted of SC and project contributors unanimously agreeing to remove Stallman, and 3-4 extremely angry outsiders calling the SC traitors.
- xlwqnt 6y agoUnanimous? As always in 2021, only one side can speak up publicly. The SC itself only removed Stallman from the web page, stating that he was really not a member anyway. The message was pretty diplomatic and crafted to appease the fanatics while not actually doing much.
- tptacek 6y agoWhich steering committee member opposed Stallman's removal? Is your objection to the whole idea of a "steering committee" that gets more of a say than TempleOS Developer CrunkLord420? Because you might need to take that up with 1999, and the EGCS/GCC detente.
- ballgames10 6y agoWhich comment are you replying to? What you write here has nothing to do with the parent comment.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y agoAnother interesting comment from the thread: > 4. Regarding morality. This letter (like many other sjw creatures) says many words about morality, diversity, but at the end of the day it boils down to removing Stallman from position. As a citizen of post-soviet country I can vividly see that this letter is enterely about politics and looks very similar to communist agenda which likes to hide authoritarian policies behind morality. It is very surprising for people from former Soviet block countries to see western world falling into 'very familiar' but notorious propaganda. I believe it's not something specific to communism but to human nature. People in power tend to have low tolerance towards opposing views and perceive them as a threat. Hence the 'you are either with us or against us' attitude, both from the left and right. In the end, people with more balanced views, or with no particular opinion on a give issue, seem to be in minority and as a consequence are afraid to speak up. This strengthens the position of those who have an axe to grind - it's a vicious circle.
- betterdedthnred 6y agoIt isn't unique to Communism however this sort of thing always appears in Communist societies, without fail, as with all radical utopian ideologies. Now someone tell me that wasn't real Communism or that I'm actually taking about Socialism, I'll wait
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y agoThis is preposterous. Removing a serially abusive person from a position of power is in no way soviet style authoritarianism, and has absolutely nothing to do with communism or capitalism. This is a private organization removing someone for poor behavior according to their own bylaws. It is not somehow a symbol for the fall of liberal capitalism in the US. Please. People are removed from boards and committees for poor behavior all the time. The sky does not fall.
- roenxi 6y agoThe accusations that Stallman is a 'serial abuser' are strictly innuendo at this point. The flow of his detractors is one of wilful misinterpretation and unreasonableness. Removing Stallman isn't an economic decision, true enough. But it is the same hubris of believing that someone's political trappings and status should determine their influence on technical matters. The Free Software community can survive without Stallman. But it is extremely worrying if the Free Software community feels Stallman is so at odds with their mission that they want to cast him out. Stallman has flaws, but his commitment to that cause is really beyond question. It is appropriate to give him a voice in deciding how these projects are run. He is a reliable lighthouse for working out what is and isn't free about software.
- sadmann1 6y agoThese foundations have always been a thorn in the sides of corporate interests. Kicking their teeth in under the guise of tolerance is an efficient way of doing it. Weird how the movement is as tolerant as the nazis to whoever doesn't subscribe to their buzzwords and blatant exploitation of minorities' problems for faux outrage.
- foobiter 6y agoIs there any evidence of this because it sounds very hyperbolic. Stallman can barely use a computer at this point, so I’m not sure why he would need to be destroyed by multi-billion dollar companies.
- disgruntled101 6y agoIn order to be tolerant we must remove everyone that does not agree
- foobiter 6y agotolerance generally excludes the intolerant, yes
- finikytou 6y agoplease explain to us where it stops. For instance lets say I find it toxic to use comma in sentences. how many people do I need to find that agree with me on this before I can ban you from hacker news for toxicity?
- leg100 6y agoWell you both seem to think it's acceptable to start a sentence with a lower case letter, so I think you'll get along just fine.
- sshine 6y agoshouldnt there have been a comma after “well”?
- dnh44 6y agoI sort of agree with you on the comma thing; reducing usage of commas while using more semicolons would make for better reading.
- bioinformatics 6y agoI usually don't like people that don't use a full stop at the end of sentences ...
- foobiter 6y agothis is a very obvious strawman... if you’ve been treating people poorly for decades you too may discover that publicly playing devils advocate for a convicted rapist may be the final straw.
- ExcavateGrandMa 6y agoEGCS to me sounded like something founded by masonry... I may be wrong...
- etiam 6y agoIs this an Aprils Fool's joke? Pretty poor taste if so.
- eye8one2 6y agoCIA plot to destroy open source software. Fake accusations will continue to be made by agents who are being paid to do so. Eventually when all the old guard has been removed everything will be corporatized and the GPL will be rescinded on all open source projects converting them to closed source capitalist piggy oink oink projects.
- rabbits77 6y agoThe solution to the Stallman problem at the FSF is probably as simple as removing his name from everything, posting some announcement on a “non-free” website. He’ll never notice to cause trouble about it, he lives in a bubble. Soon the problem will just solve itself, given his age and various obvious physical issues he’ll be dead in the next few years anyway.
- ldarby 6y agoThe first email in the thread [0] has 10 reasons why Stallman should be cancelled. They repeat Stallman's earlier opinions about pedophilia from before he changed his opinion on that, so they shouldn't be valid. About point 5 about "defending sexual assault", I think it's important to note that it was "sexual assault" only because that is the statutory charge used in Texas for violating the age of consent law [1]. If the incident [2] had happened a few miles away in Oklahoma where the age of consent is 16, there would not be a "sexual assault" charge. I complete agree with Stallman's other point (made elsewhere) that more precise language needs be used to describe what actually happened. I'm not defending Stallman about everything - the other points, which can be summed up as "he's a creep towards women and alienates them", are problematic, and if he won't change his behaviour that might be a valid reason to cancel him. [0] https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html [1] https://www.ageofconsent.net/states/texas https://www.ageofconsent.net/states/texas [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cody-wilson-3d-printed-gun-activist-sexual-assault-child-texas-a8546466.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cody-wilso...
- xlwqnt 6y agoSo, at least one pro-canceler has a cushy Facebook job and opens a tribunal against Stallman on flimsy evidence. There is no evidence at all that Stallman actually hurt a person. On the other hand Facebook hurts millions of teenagers every day by deliberately nurturing addictive behavior. Should we examine Zuckerberg on the gcc mailing list in the same manner?
- tptacek 6y agoI for one think Mark Zuckerberg should not be on the GCC Steering Committee. But I'm not on the GCC Steering Committee and have made no contributions to GCC of any sort, so my opinion on this matter doesn't count. I hope they don't add Mark Zuckerberg. One more thing to worry about now.
- ballgames10 6y agoNice diversion. The actual message is of course that said Facebook developer should either quit or lead a similar campaign in Facebook.