6 ms·

globally recognized stores of wealth that can be transferred instantly makes no sense to you? Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country,

by toolz 6y ago

globally recognized stores of wealth that can be transferred instantly makes no sense to you? Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country, it's not easy or cheap. If fiat money is a bad thing, then I guess we're all doomed since the entire worlds economy is based on fiat money. cryptocurrency will have the ability to solve global equality problems like no other tech has been able to in history. Don't mistake me as saying bitcoin will be that instrument as there are many technically superior cryptocurrencies out there. Take cardano, for example, it's built in such a way that it could do more global tx/second than VISA currently does and likely use less electricity to achieve that goal.

iso1631 6y ago
> Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country, it's not easy or cheap. Yes, it's easy and cheap
- toolz 6y ago
  maybe for developed nations - that doesn't represent much of the world
  - matthias509 6y ago
    So high tech crypto is the solution to making trading with the developing world easier? Aren’t these the same sorts of places which struggle to have reliable electricity, let alone internet access?
    - cfcosta 6y ago
      Not only. There are many places with internet and poor banking system, Nigeria comes to mind.
    - cmoscoso 6y ago
      No.
    - christiansakai 6y ago
      Believe it or not. You can just use an app that accept crypto payment that is installed in your smartphone in Africa. So the answer is, yes. I can send crypto to an orphan in Africa without going through intermediary. Fast, quick, trustless.
    - retrac 6y ago
      Even in developed countries a non-trivial proportion of the population is not banked. (Estimate for Canada: 6% of adults do not have any form of bank account.) It can be the large majority in many developing countries, including ones where most people have electricity at home and a smartphone can be bought for a few day's wages. Sending a small amount of cash from Brazil to Canada is not trivial in many cases. And of course, many people here on Hacker News have a rather privileged Western notion, that you can, in fact, legally send money just wherever. That's not universal. Capital controls restrict that heavily in many places, such that it can be illegal for people to send money out of the country. So the formal banking system is no help there. Assuming that you can trade Bitcoin on both ends, it really is often the simplest way to simply move money between people outside the formal banking system, especially internationally. For better and worse, it cuts right through all of the red tape: no wire transfer declarations, no capital control declarations, no government-mandated exchange rates, no tax reporting, no KYC requirements, no ID requirements.
      - africanboy 6y ago
        > such that it can be illegal for people to send money out of the country so it would be illegal to send crypto money if we are exploring illegal ways to do things, crypto is just one of many solutions and probably not the cheapest or easiest > Assuming that you can trade Bitcoin on both ends, it really is often the simplest way to simply move money between people outside the formal banking system Talking about Africa, as an Italian with African roots, it's not. the idea that you need cutting edge technology to solve developing countries problems is a die hard one and represent a "rather privileged Western notion", developing countries have their own systems that already work. When there is a mobile network, people are able to send money even without an internet connection using mobile phones of 4 generations ago. In Africa it is possible since middle 2000s. For example: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa In many African countries, where China is financing developing projects, you can use WeChat. Anyway, you can already send money to Burundi, Cameroon, Ghana, Kenya, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Rwanda, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, and Zimbabwe (and many others https://www.xoom.com/about https://www.xoom.com/about) using Xoom Yes, Iran or Venezuela or North Korea are not there, because that would be illegal for an US business, but it's illegal to send crypto as well. The hard part of sending money to such countries is not technical, it's legal, I understand if people want to send money back to their families, but it's an hard task by design when people living in those countries aren't even allowed to leave the country or own a bank account in a foreign country (because of the US) https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/13/italian-banks-are-closing-iranian-citizens-accounts-over-us-sanctions-is-it-legal https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/13/italian-banks-are-closin... Crypto doesn't solve that problem, it only makes the people at both ends liable. Do you think that the US would allow bitcoins to flow in Iran to finance what they consider an enemy regime? (rightfully or not) Besides, if you want to send money to some controversial countries, there are other solutions, already available https://yekpay.com/en/irr-remittance/transfer-money https://yekpay.com/en/irr-remittance/transfer-money You don't need no crypto and developing countries need no Western saviours.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- sosuke 6y ago
  I spent $25 sending a $300 wire transfer from my bank to a different bank. It was easy. But that is not at all cheap. The only service around that allowed a Canadian friend to send me money was PayPal. His bank and mine didn't feel like talking to each other.
  - ska 6y ago
    I spent about $75 sending a $250,000 wire transfer (actually split, but nominally) from my bank to a bank in another country. It was easy, safe, and cheap. Wire transfers really aren't designed for your $300. You can complain that EFT should be easier (like they are in Europe) but that isn't a problem with the currency. You could have sent your friend a check for < $1, if the time to clear was acceptable. I get that change is frustratingly slow in this, but none of it requires a fundamental currency or technology change. I just paid my rent by phone for $0 in fees, and regularly exchange funds with friends for the same. Between countries this is harder but that's more regulatory than technical. Unless you are taking the (extreme) view that states shouldn't be able to see, control, or tax/tariff such transactions your issue is with the regulatory hurdles and incentives to integrate incorporating them, not on the networks (or currencies).
peytn 6y ago
The “store of wealth” excuse is pretty transparently just to lure greater fools after the crypto-is-money thing didn’t pan out. The only wealth that’s stored is the network of people pumping these things. And guess what: that network will move on to the next thing eventually.
- epx 6y ago
  The “store of wealth” is a rationalization of the fact that greedy miners have taken over and fossilized the B development.
  - uncletammy 6y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by "B development"
- toolz 6y ago
  I use crypto as money _frequently_ - so it did and is panning out. You may as well be trying to convince me the sky isn't blue while I'm looking up.

by toolz 6y ago

iso1631 6y ago

> Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country, it's not easy or cheap. Yes, it's easy and cheap

toolz 6y ago
maybe for developed nations - that doesn't represent much of the world
- matthias509 6y ago
  So high tech crypto is the solution to making trading with the developing world easier? Aren’t these the same sorts of places which struggle to have reliable electricity, let alone internet access?
  - cfcosta 6y ago
    Not only. There are many places with internet and poor banking system, Nigeria comes to mind.
  - cmoscoso 6y ago
    No.
  - christiansakai 6y ago
    Believe it or not. You can just use an app that accept crypto payment that is installed in your smartphone in Africa. So the answer is, yes. I can send crypto to an orphan in Africa without going through intermediary. Fast, quick, trustless.
  - retrac 6y ago
    Even in developed countries a non-trivial proportion of the population is not banked. (Estimate for Canada: 6% of adults do not have any form of bank account.) It can be the large majority in many developing countries, including ones where most people have electricity at home and a smartphone can be bought for a few day's wages. Sending a small amount of cash from Brazil to Canada is not trivial in many cases. And of course, many people here on Hacker News have a rather privileged Western notion, that you can, in fact, legally send money just wherever. That's not universal. Capital controls restrict that heavily in many places, such that it can be illegal for people to send money out of the country. So the formal banking system is no help there. Assuming that you can trade Bitcoin on both ends, it really is often the simplest way to simply move money between people outside the formal banking system, especially internationally. For better and worse, it cuts right through all of the red tape: no wire transfer declarations, no capital control declarations, no government-mandated exchange rates, no tax reporting, no KYC requirements, no ID requirements.
    - africanboy 6y ago
      > such that it can be illegal for people to send money out of the country so it would be illegal to send crypto money if we are exploring illegal ways to do things, crypto is just one of many solutions and probably not the cheapest or easiest > Assuming that you can trade Bitcoin on both ends, it really is often the simplest way to simply move money between people outside the formal banking system Talking about Africa, as an Italian with African roots, it's not. the idea that you need cutting edge technology to solve developing countries problems is a die hard one and represent a "rather privileged Western notion", developing countries have their own systems that already work. When there is a mobile network, people are able to send money even without an internet connection using mobile phones of 4 generations ago. In Africa it is possible since middle 2000s. For example: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa In many African countries, where China is financing developing projects, you can use WeChat. Anyway, you can already send money to Burundi, Cameroon, Ghana, Kenya, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Rwanda, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, and Zimbabwe (and many others https://www.xoom.com/about https://www.xoom.com/about) using Xoom Yes, Iran or Venezuela or North Korea are not there, because that would be illegal for an US business, but it's illegal to send crypto as well. The hard part of sending money to such countries is not technical, it's legal, I understand if people want to send money back to their families, but it's an hard task by design when people living in those countries aren't even allowed to leave the country or own a bank account in a foreign country (because of the US) https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/13/italian-banks-are-closing-iranian-citizens-accounts-over-us-sanctions-is-it-legal https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/13/italian-banks-are-closin... Crypto doesn't solve that problem, it only makes the people at both ends liable. Do you think that the US would allow bitcoins to flow in Iran to finance what they consider an enemy regime? (rightfully or not) Besides, if you want to send money to some controversial countries, there are other solutions, already available https://yekpay.com/en/irr-remittance/transfer-money https://yekpay.com/en/irr-remittance/transfer-money You don't need no crypto and developing countries need no Western saviours.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
sosuke 6y ago
I spent $25 sending a $300 wire transfer from my bank to a different bank. It was easy. But that is not at all cheap. The only service around that allowed a Canadian friend to send me money was PayPal. His bank and mine didn't feel like talking to each other.
- ska 6y ago
  I spent about $75 sending a $250,000 wire transfer (actually split, but nominally) from my bank to a bank in another country. It was easy, safe, and cheap. Wire transfers really aren't designed for your $300. You can complain that EFT should be easier (like they are in Europe) but that isn't a problem with the currency. You could have sent your friend a check for < $1, if the time to clear was acceptable. I get that change is frustratingly slow in this, but none of it requires a fundamental currency or technology change. I just paid my rent by phone for $0 in fees, and regularly exchange funds with friends for the same. Between countries this is harder but that's more regulatory than technical. Unless you are taking the (extreme) view that states shouldn't be able to see, control, or tax/tariff such transactions your issue is with the regulatory hurdles and incentives to integrate incorporating them, not on the networks (or currencies).

peytn 6y ago

The “store of wealth” excuse is pretty transparently just to lure greater fools after the crypto-is-money thing didn’t pan out. The only wealth that’s stored is the network of people pumping these things. And guess what: that network will move on to the next thing eventually.

epx 6y ago
The “store of wealth” is a rationalization of the fact that greedy miners have taken over and fossilized the B development.
- uncletammy 6y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "B development"
toolz 6y ago
I use crypto as money _frequently_ - so it did and is panning out. You may as well be trying to convince me the sky isn't blue while I'm looking up.