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It's trivial. Just say any is pure speculation of thin air and you'll be right. There's no sense in the currently existing crypto currencies. They're all fiat m

by henvic 6y ago

It's trivial. Just say any is pure speculation of thin air and you'll be right. There's no sense in the currently existing crypto currencies. They're all fiat money. Peter Schiff was right back then... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgRGBNekFIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgRGBNekFIw and he's still right now. https://twitter.com/peterschiff/status/1345427870546538509 https://twitter.com/peterschiff/status/1345427870546538509

bhouston 6y ago
You're getting crazy down voted, instead people should reply.
- celticninja 6y ago
  What is there to reply about? Schiff has been calling bitcoin a scam for years. The linked tweet says that no one will be making a profit, which ignores a lot of people who have already made a lot of money. So it's disingenuous, also he has been wrong for a decade.
  - africanboy 6y ago
    bitcoins are valued at $ 600 billions, with 6 million active users it's an average of $ 100,000 per user, which is not much in 10 years time. probably less than 1% made a lot of money, the rest lost some.
    - celticninja 6y ago
      Also your numbers are nonsense. A bitcoin is currently worth $60,000. 10 years ago they were worth perhaps 0.1 cents each. I am pretty sure you could not find anyone who would agree that the gains made by bitcoin over the last decade could have been beaten by any other investment.
      - africanboy 6y ago
        bitcoins are worthless their nominal (aka imaginary) value is right now $60,000 dollars each, in real money if btc could not be traded in fiat currencies, which is the real goal of every btc investor, their value would drop again to zero because that's their real (aka physical) value
    - celticninja 6y ago
      Honestly you are talking rubbish. Bitcoin is currently just below it's ATH, so if anyone lost money it is because of stupid trades and not because the value of what they bought diminished severely. So according to your research 99% of people who have bought it have lost money. That's complete bullshit, I personally don't know anyone who has lost money, they have all made significant returns, so unless they represent your 1%, I say again, you are talking bollocks.
      - africanboy 6y ago
        > So according to your research 99% of people who have bought it have lost mone it's accurate you don't have to believe me, just think that Satoshi alone owns 1% of the bitcoins in circulation, than there are a major crime organization in Bulgaria that owned $ 1.2 billion worth of btc (currently owned by the Bulgaria government), the FBI that seized many bitcoins around the World (1.5% of the total), including those of silkroad, followed by btc trading companies. only a quarter million users (4% of the total) own a full bitcoin, while the majority owns less than a half bitcoin. they bought at X and sold at X minus some, not much, but a loss nonetheless or bought at Y and sold at Y plus some small amount and.never tried again, for various reasons including "not worth the risk". technically not a loss, but not a good investment either. also many thousands wallets are inaccessible because the keys were lost (a friend of mine made almost two bitcoins in payments 8 years ago, he lost the keys soon after...) while the 1% got extremely rich, the 99% had neither the capital or the will to risk to get there. which is completely understandable.
        celticninja 6y ago
        Complete nonsense.
        africanboy 6y ago
        don't worry, you'll understand it one day. do you own BTC? anyway, you don't have to believe me (again) > According to bitinfo, which tracks the total number and value of bitcoin addresses, 75% of addresses are home to less than 0.01 bitcoin, and 97.54% have a balance of less than one bitcoin hardly nonsense
andrewmutz 6y ago
They are fiat money? I don't think they are fiat money. Fiat money has actual utility as you need it to pay your taxes.
- jerry80 6y ago
  Fiat means it's backed by a state. The definition and etymology of the word makes it clear [1][2]. I wouldn't go so far as to say that fiat must have "actual utility" though. Being forced to use a currency in order to avoid prison time is more like extortion, rather than utility. Crypto isn't fiat, though, in any case. 1. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiat https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiat 2. https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fiat https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fiat
- henvic 6y ago
  Fiat currency is money that isn't backed by something, such as gold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics)
toolz 6y ago
globally recognized stores of wealth that can be transferred instantly makes no sense to you? Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country, it's not easy or cheap. If fiat money is a bad thing, then I guess we're all doomed since the entire worlds economy is based on fiat money. cryptocurrency will have the ability to solve global equality problems like no other tech has been able to in history. Don't mistake me as saying bitcoin will be that instrument as there are many technically superior cryptocurrencies out there. Take cardano, for example, it's built in such a way that it could do more global tx/second than VISA currently does and likely use less electricity to achieve that goal.
- iso1631 6y ago
  > Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country, it's not easy or cheap. Yes, it's easy and cheap
  - toolz 6y ago
    maybe for developed nations - that doesn't represent much of the world
    - matthias509 6y ago
      So high tech crypto is the solution to making trading with the developing world easier? Aren’t these the same sorts of places which struggle to have reliable electricity, let alone internet access?
      - cfcosta 6y ago
        Not only. There are many places with internet and poor banking system, Nigeria comes to mind.
      - cmoscoso 6y ago
        No.
      - christiansakai 6y ago
omgwtfbbq 6y ago
>They're all fiat money. Is this supposed to be an insult? Are you some Austrian Economics/Gold Standard kook?
Tenoke 6y ago
There's plenty of cryptocurrencies that are more akin to stock in a project or have functionalities tied to them. For example, ETH which is used to pay fees to run code on the chain, SNX which allows you to invest in synthetic assets, decentralized exchanges like UNI or SUSHI, rewards for users as in the spotify-like AUDIO etc.
hashingroll 6y ago
Just looked at his twitter and interestingly his tweet ~4 hours ago [0] says "I was wrong about #Bitcoin.". Though it is likely an April Fools joke. [0] https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524 https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524
sosuke 6y ago
Wow that Peter Schiff's April fools joke was perfectly timed for me clicking your links. https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524 https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524 "I was wrong about Bitcoin"
cmehdy 6y ago
I always feel like a fish out of the water when talking about money-related subjects, so I looked up what the actual definition of fiat money is, and followed a dozen or so different sources. Unless I am mistaken, it seems like cryptocurrencies that currently exist can all be called fiduciary money but not fiat money, as the fiat term seems to tightly connect with government decrees and issuing. There might be a form of crypto out there officially issued or backed by decree by governments, but the major known ones aren't AFAIK. Do you have examples in mind? (This short summary seems to correlate with all I've read: https://quickonomics.com/different-types-of-money/ https://quickonomics.com/different-types-of-money/ ) If that is the case (crypto != fiat), then I would have trouble understanding what your argument is.
- airstrike 6y ago
  Fiat money is most commonly used to refer to money not convertible into any real asset, as opposed to e.g. being coupled to gold. It exists simply because the government wishes it into existence, hence "fiat" or "make it so" in a very liberal translation from Latin
- anonporridge 6y ago
  Based on the descriptions in this link, I don't think crypto neatly fits into any of these categories. It's not quite fiduciary money because there is no issuer that gives any promises of convertibility. Perhaps you could argue there is some implied promise of convertibility due to the prominence of fiat<->crypto exchanges? It seems closest to commodity money, because it's value depends on asset scarcity, but it's not a real commodity with utility in and of itself. Then again, it's not clear that gold was actually valuable to people before they started using it as money. It's possible that use as jewelry emerged after use as money to peacock and show off wealth, and industrial use is a relatively modern invention. Crypto is a novel invention of self-securing abstract scarcity. It's a scarce number in a database. Its scarcity is assured by the properties of the network, rather than trust in an issuing authority. It just doesn't fit perfectly in any of our pre-existing categories.
unreal37 6y ago
To be 100% honest, Schiff is 50% trolling. He loves the attention, and being the loudest Bitcoin bear is getting him lots of attention. He does and says things just to get attention. When someone like Elon Musk or Chamath gives him any ounce of attention, he spends hours talking about it. Classic. He might be right. But he's 50% seeking attention.
africanboy 6y ago
completely unrelated but watching at that Twitter thread looks like bitcoins is a boys only club, putting gender issues aside - I don't think they are particularly interesting here - it's kinda telling IMO.
airstrike 6y ago
> They're all fiat money. This has no bearing on the (societal) value of bitcoin. The dollar is also fiat money and everyone loves it.

by henvic 6y ago

bhouston 6y ago

You're getting crazy down voted, instead people should reply.

celticninja 6y ago
What is there to reply about? Schiff has been calling bitcoin a scam for years. The linked tweet says that no one will be making a profit, which ignores a lot of people who have already made a lot of money. So it's disingenuous, also he has been wrong for a decade.
- africanboy 6y ago
  bitcoins are valued at $ 600 billions, with 6 million active users it's an average of $ 100,000 per user, which is not much in 10 years time. probably less than 1% made a lot of money, the rest lost some.
  - celticninja 6y ago
    Also your numbers are nonsense. A bitcoin is currently worth $60,000. 10 years ago they were worth perhaps 0.1 cents each. I am pretty sure you could not find anyone who would agree that the gains made by bitcoin over the last decade could have been beaten by any other investment.
    - africanboy 6y ago
      bitcoins are worthless their nominal (aka imaginary) value is right now $60,000 dollars each, in real money if btc could not be traded in fiat currencies, which is the real goal of every btc investor, their value would drop again to zero because that's their real (aka physical) value
  - celticninja 6y ago
    Honestly you are talking rubbish. Bitcoin is currently just below it's ATH, so if anyone lost money it is because of stupid trades and not because the value of what they bought diminished severely. So according to your research 99% of people who have bought it have lost money. That's complete bullshit, I personally don't know anyone who has lost money, they have all made significant returns, so unless they represent your 1%, I say again, you are talking bollocks.
    - africanboy 6y ago
      > So according to your research 99% of people who have bought it have lost mone it's accurate you don't have to believe me, just think that Satoshi alone owns 1% of the bitcoins in circulation, than there are a major crime organization in Bulgaria that owned $ 1.2 billion worth of btc (currently owned by the Bulgaria government), the FBI that seized many bitcoins around the World (1.5% of the total), including those of silkroad, followed by btc trading companies. only a quarter million users (4% of the total) own a full bitcoin, while the majority owns less than a half bitcoin. they bought at X and sold at X minus some, not much, but a loss nonetheless or bought at Y and sold at Y plus some small amount and.never tried again, for various reasons including "not worth the risk". technically not a loss, but not a good investment either. also many thousands wallets are inaccessible because the keys were lost (a friend of mine made almost two bitcoins in payments 8 years ago, he lost the keys soon after...) while the 1% got extremely rich, the 99% had neither the capital or the will to risk to get there. which is completely understandable.
      - celticninja 6y ago
        Complete nonsense.
        africanboy 6y ago
        don't worry, you'll understand it one day. do you own BTC? anyway, you don't have to believe me (again) > According to bitinfo, which tracks the total number and value of bitcoin addresses, 75% of addresses are home to less than 0.01 bitcoin, and 97.54% have a balance of less than one bitcoin hardly nonsense

andrewmutz 6y ago

They are fiat money? I don't think they are fiat money. Fiat money has actual utility as you need it to pay your taxes.

jerry80 6y ago
Fiat means it's backed by a state. The definition and etymology of the word makes it clear [1][2]. I wouldn't go so far as to say that fiat must have "actual utility" though. Being forced to use a currency in order to avoid prison time is more like extortion, rather than utility. Crypto isn't fiat, though, in any case. 1. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiat https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiat 2. https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fiat https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fiat
henvic 6y ago
Fiat currency is money that isn't backed by something, such as gold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics)

toolz 6y ago

globally recognized stores of wealth that can be transferred instantly makes no sense to you? Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country, it's not easy or cheap. If fiat money is a bad thing, then I guess we're all doomed since the entire worlds economy is based on fiat money. cryptocurrency will have the ability to solve global equality problems like no other tech has been able to in history. Don't mistake me as saying bitcoin will be that instrument as there are many technically superior cryptocurrencies out there. Take cardano, for example, it's built in such a way that it could do more global tx/second than VISA currently does and likely use less electricity to achieve that goal.

iso1631 6y ago
> Have you ever tried to trade with someone outside of your country, it's not easy or cheap. Yes, it's easy and cheap
- toolz 6y ago
  maybe for developed nations - that doesn't represent much of the world
  - matthias509 6y ago
    So high tech crypto is the solution to making trading with the developing world easier? Aren’t these the same sorts of places which struggle to have reliable electricity, let alone internet access?
    - cfcosta 6y ago
      Not only. There are many places with internet and poor banking system, Nigeria comes to mind.
    - cmoscoso 6y ago
      No.
    - christiansakai 6y ago

omgwtfbbq 6y ago

>They're all fiat money. Is this supposed to be an insult? Are you some Austrian Economics/Gold Standard kook?

Tenoke 6y ago

There's plenty of cryptocurrencies that are more akin to stock in a project or have functionalities tied to them. For example, ETH which is used to pay fees to run code on the chain, SNX which allows you to invest in synthetic assets, decentralized exchanges like UNI or SUSHI, rewards for users as in the spotify-like AUDIO etc.

hashingroll 6y ago

Just looked at his twitter and interestingly his tweet ~4 hours ago [0] says "I was wrong about #Bitcoin.". Though it is likely an April Fools joke. [0] https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524 https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524

sosuke 6y ago

Wow that Peter Schiff's April fools joke was perfectly timed for me clicking your links. https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524 https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1377626254619328524 "I was wrong about Bitcoin"

cmehdy 6y ago

I always feel like a fish out of the water when talking about money-related subjects, so I looked up what the actual definition of fiat money is, and followed a dozen or so different sources. Unless I am mistaken, it seems like cryptocurrencies that currently exist can all be called fiduciary money but not fiat money, as the fiat term seems to tightly connect with government decrees and issuing. There might be a form of crypto out there officially issued or backed by decree by governments, but the major known ones aren't AFAIK. Do you have examples in mind? (This short summary seems to correlate with all I've read: https://quickonomics.com/different-types-of-money/ https://quickonomics.com/different-types-of-money/ ) If that is the case (crypto != fiat), then I would have trouble understanding what your argument is.

airstrike 6y ago
Fiat money is most commonly used to refer to money not convertible into any real asset, as opposed to e.g. being coupled to gold. It exists simply because the government wishes it into existence, hence "fiat" or "make it so" in a very liberal translation from Latin
anonporridge 6y ago
Based on the descriptions in this link, I don't think crypto neatly fits into any of these categories. It's not quite fiduciary money because there is no issuer that gives any promises of convertibility. Perhaps you could argue there is some implied promise of convertibility due to the prominence of fiat<->crypto exchanges? It seems closest to commodity money, because it's value depends on asset scarcity, but it's not a real commodity with utility in and of itself. Then again, it's not clear that gold was actually valuable to people before they started using it as money. It's possible that use as jewelry emerged after use as money to peacock and show off wealth, and industrial use is a relatively modern invention. Crypto is a novel invention of self-securing abstract scarcity. It's a scarce number in a database. Its scarcity is assured by the properties of the network, rather than trust in an issuing authority. It just doesn't fit perfectly in any of our pre-existing categories.

unreal37 6y ago

To be 100% honest, Schiff is 50% trolling. He loves the attention, and being the loudest Bitcoin bear is getting him lots of attention. He does and says things just to get attention. When someone like Elon Musk or Chamath gives him any ounce of attention, he spends hours talking about it. Classic. He might be right. But he's 50% seeking attention.

africanboy 6y ago

completely unrelated but watching at that Twitter thread looks like bitcoins is a boys only club, putting gender issues aside - I don't think they are particularly interesting here - it's kinda telling IMO.

airstrike 6y ago

> They're all fiat money. This has no bearing on the (societal) value of bitcoin. The dollar is also fiat money and everyone loves it.