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> "In practice, Python has snowballed simply because of network effect. Everyone knows Python so everyone uses it so everyone new has to learn it." Sigh. You w

> "In practice, Python has snowballed simply because of network effect. Everyone knows Python so everyone uses it so everyone new has to learn it." Sigh. You would think that reflecting on a thread the author knows is public would have better introspection than this, but there's that Upton Sinclair quote again: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” Python didn't win simply by randomly being selected as the choice to snowball effect on. Ask any language-agnostic or new programmer to take take a gander at each one. 90% will find Python easier to use. That's where Python's strength is, and that is a huge market, as the general population just isn't that great at advanced lower-level programming like C++. So you have college intro courses and programming-adjacent fields in academics (stats, bio, etc) able to dabble into Python. Perl kept plodding on with it's diehard unix fanbase. You can't expect mass appeal when that's your focus. Still failing to acknowledge this is what contributed to Perl's downfall (random snowball effect, seriously?) at the expense of Python is why Perl continues its decline.

hatsuseno 6y ago
Extrapolating your take on Python's snowball here means that Python will fast decline given it's just bloating with every passing year with whatever the PEP reviewing folk think is a good addition to the language. The TIMTOWTDI perspective that I personally very much appreciate and value is slowly taking the field from Zen Python's one obvious way to do it.
UncleOxidant 6y ago
Not only that, but the "everyone knows Python so everyone uses it..." argument seems tautological (Python won because it won). You could argue that more people knew Perl in the mid-to-late 90s than Python - so why didn't "everyone knows Perl so everyone uses it so everyone new has to learn it" sustain Perl's adoption then?
- dkarl 6y ago
  It seems like people barely have to glance at Python to know it. Perl is harder, and for many people (or at least me) it didn't stick without constant practice. I put in the effort to learn Perl several times, but any time I left it alone for a month or two, my brain purged it. I finally embraced Python after realizing that I could still remember how to code in it after casually messing around with it a few months prior.
  - UncleOxidant 6y ago
    I'll add that perl code is much harder to read and understand even if you're the author of said code. I wrote a lot of Perl code in the 90s and I'd often come back to a piece of code I'd written a few months before and be puzzled.
- SubjectToChange 6y ago
  For handling text, there is no better language than Perl. It's a great language for scripting on Unices and unix-like systems. But OOP and API oriented programming really got going in the late 90s and Python is by far a better fit for those concepts. It's probably a better language for general purpose programming altogether. However, I think languages like Perl, PHP, and Tcl get far too much grief. To quote Hemingway "Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors."
syntheticnature 6y ago
The old chestnut that Python is executable pseudocode and Perl is executable line noise is relevant, though they each have their pain points.
NelsonMinar 6y ago
There was definitely an era where Perl had way more mindshare than Python. It was the winner of the snowball effect.
kamaal 6y ago
Simply put Python is the new Perl. As a Perl fanatic. I've come to like Python because of the endless feature bloat and growth of library ecosystem. The Perlification of Python has happened and we old time Perl programmers are enjoying it. Personally I still think Perl 6/Raku has a chance provided a Killer app comes around.
dkarl 6y ago
Something that just happened, and I immediately realized it would be relevant to share here: A friend of mine texted me a question about an issue he was having, and I texted back an answer with some Python code for illustration. I don't know if he has ever used Python for anything. I just assume it's an acceptable least common denominator for technical communication. Even if it turned out he was a copy of my friend from an alternative timeline where Python never existed, he would have no trouble reading it as pseudocode. Try that with Perl!

hatsuseno 6y ago

Extrapolating your take on Python's snowball here means that Python will fast decline given it's just bloating with every passing year with whatever the PEP reviewing folk think is a good addition to the language. The TIMTOWTDI perspective that I personally very much appreciate and value is slowly taking the field from Zen Python's one obvious way to do it.

UncleOxidant 6y ago

Not only that, but the "everyone knows Python so everyone uses it..." argument seems tautological (Python won because it won). You could argue that more people knew Perl in the mid-to-late 90s than Python - so why didn't "everyone knows Perl so everyone uses it so everyone new has to learn it" sustain Perl's adoption then?

dkarl 6y ago
It seems like people barely have to glance at Python to know it. Perl is harder, and for many people (or at least me) it didn't stick without constant practice. I put in the effort to learn Perl several times, but any time I left it alone for a month or two, my brain purged it. I finally embraced Python after realizing that I could still remember how to code in it after casually messing around with it a few months prior.
- UncleOxidant 6y ago
  I'll add that perl code is much harder to read and understand even if you're the author of said code. I wrote a lot of Perl code in the 90s and I'd often come back to a piece of code I'd written a few months before and be puzzled.
SubjectToChange 6y ago
For handling text, there is no better language than Perl. It's a great language for scripting on Unices and unix-like systems. But OOP and API oriented programming really got going in the late 90s and Python is by far a better fit for those concepts. It's probably a better language for general purpose programming altogether. However, I think languages like Perl, PHP, and Tcl get far too much grief. To quote Hemingway "Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors."

syntheticnature 6y ago

The old chestnut that Python is executable pseudocode and Perl is executable line noise is relevant, though they each have their pain points.

NelsonMinar 6y ago

There was definitely an era where Perl had way more mindshare than Python. It was the winner of the snowball effect.

kamaal 6y ago

Simply put Python is the new Perl. As a Perl fanatic. I've come to like Python because of the endless feature bloat and growth of library ecosystem. The Perlification of Python has happened and we old time Perl programmers are enjoying it. Personally I still think Perl 6/Raku has a chance provided a Killer app comes around.

dkarl 6y ago

Something that just happened, and I immediately realized it would be relevant to share here: A friend of mine texted me a question about an issue he was having, and I texted back an answer with some Python code for illustration. I don't know if he has ever used Python for anything. I just assume it's an acceptable least common denominator for technical communication. Even if it turned out he was a copy of my friend from an alternative timeline where Python never existed, he would have no trouble reading it as pseudocode. Try that with Perl!