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Ignoring the ecological problems of Bitcoin won't make them go away.

DethNinja 6y ago
What about ecological impact of fiat currency/current state capitalism? Why not compare that with ecological impact of bitcoin?
- minikites 6y ago
  I'd love to talk about the ecological impact of capitalism but criticizing capitalism goes poorly around here.
- Guest42 6y ago
  Bitcoin is an invalid comparison and has a laundry list of cons without very many (if any) pros. Comparing dollars to bitcoins is useless. I don’t have a single bill I can pay in bitcoin and if there was, the fees would be worse than current options. I don’t want to have my salary in bitcoin as its “value” is in a quantum state. Regardless of how loud proponents keep using the same 3 arguments, bitcoin usage will never be the norm.
  - pcthrowaway 6y ago
    If you can't think of a single pro of Bitcoin, you may not understand it very well; that's ok , it's complex and new paradigms can take a while to propagate. To be clear, I want people to stop using Bitcoin. There are better cryptocurrencies which don't rely on energy burning to secure their networks, which have negligible fees, and which have near-instant confirmation times.
    - Guest42 6y ago
      What part isn't understood? What is this "complexity" that makes it all worthwhile? I have gone through the white paper and built a PoC including web-app and mobile wallets. I have masters in Math and CS and 10 years of experience in financial services. This thread isn't discussing other "better cryptocurrencies."
      - thebean11 6y ago
        IMO it's not the complexity, or the "how it works" that people miss. It's the larger game theory and societal forces that push the price up. I think it's pretty naive to think that the $1T market cap is accidental, or driven by dumb money.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - pcthrowaway 6y ago
        I guess the "pro"s I'm referring to are how bitcoin is revolutionary. It's still 1st-gen , so it's "old" tech . Sure it's been largely superceded by modern designs, but you were comparing it to the central banking system and dollars.
thebean11 6y ago
So the solution is posting a carbon copy of the same article to HN every other day?
- brighton36 6y ago
  Why is there even a problem? Everyone needs a thneed.
Guest42 6y ago
Agreed, this should be brought up constantly. If there’s one good thing about the internet, it’s that it is able to highlight important issues and use that attention to make changes.
SilasX 6y ago
Singling out Bitcoin for a problem inherent to all underpriced energy usage won't lead to a coherent framework for addressing GHG emissions.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Ignoring the ecological problems of Bitcoin won't make them go away. They said the same thing about anti-war movements, of which Bitcoin is a critical component if you understand what is written in the genesis block. Why not say the same thing about needless wars in Syria, Iraqm Afghanistan, Yemen etc... Or the horrible state of unemployment benefit scams (in the billions) and the distribution of it which ends up putting people into homelessness due to sheer imncomptence? You HN's are so toxic about not having made it big with opensource tech disrupting finance that it's just sad now. It's one thing to say you don't understand it, or that it's not for you because you live in the West but to say it has no intrinsic value and yet every major bank is sending us to new ATHs trying to get shows a clear disconnect from reality. This is not just sour grapes anymore, this is Trump-supporter levels of delusion. Get it through your heads: fiat is the problem to most of the World's problems, be it in warfare or environmental to the very notion of the State itself and Bitcoin just solved ~1/2 of the problem. A part of me knows this has to do more with the fact that most of your careers and perhaps existence itself are not as important as you thought they were if Bitcoin wins, and fiat get devalued into obscurity as you have no other desirable attribute going for you, but you should just hedge your bets and join us. We have way more things to solve and not enough Human Capital, if it's money you're after than it's going to be lean for you until you can add value to the network, but it can be done. I did it and so many others have to. And I personally didn't even know how to code when I first heard about it 2010 when it was all just programmers.
- snakeboy 6y ago
  > It's one thing to say you don't understand it... Okay, I'll bite. Why is 'fiat' the root of all the world's problems rather than corrupt institutions and human nature? I don't even know what that means blame fiat. Something about moving off the gold standard? Didn't we have wars and corruption before that too?
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > Why is 'fiat' the root of all the world's problems rather than corrupt institutions and human nature? They enable it, and more importantly it has shown to be able to subvert a population in order to direct it's Human Capital to the most egregious of undertakings: War, genocide, mass murder, bureaucracy etc... These are only enabled because people are being compensated in something they need to acquire goods and services in a region, and since modern existence (Sumeria?) Nation-States have a monopolisitic control over this power, with no tolerance for it's 'corruption' from the outside as challenges it's core power. My contention is: you remove the incentive for fiat and Society and Humanity (as flawed as we are) will re-organize itself for a more optimal outcome. Unemployment concerns will be irrelevant if we as a species decide to tackle Climate Change, Regenerative Agriculture and Mars colonization (I've been involved in all 3 btw) in earnest, so why not build an economy around a tech that can function as a Multi-planetary Currency for it's Multi-Planetary economy? > I don't even know what that means blame fiat. Something about moving off the gold standard? This is rather meandering, but I think you're asking what does Fiat mean, right? If so, yes, it's a currency which at it's core has no intrinsic value other than that what Nation-State's have forced it's populace to accept it as, which has since been detached from it's former Precious Metal Backing. It comes from the latin word 'fiat' to mean: An arbitrary order or decree. A little context: the average life for a currency (fiat or otherwise) is 40 years. > Didn't we have wars and corruption before that too? Sure, but conflict resolution and trade is more favourable outcome for man if the incentives are aligned correctly, and it should be the default for how Humanity should see itself moving forward. We have no chance of solving any of the World's problems if we continue on this path, be it environmental, warfare, political, social, Mars colonization... whatever. Fiat had it's time, it created a level of industrialization and specilization which would have been impossible under a barter system or sparsely traded local currency model, and it was written in blood from our ancestors... but we are now at a transitionary phase which Bitcoin has proven with the test of time that we demand and now have a better alternative than what we are forced to comply to with USD/EURO/YUAN/YEN etc... We are a single species and an ever-growing interconnected one at that, we should conduct ourselves as such rather than serve the interests of a small political elite who seem to be the only ones apt for potentially nuclear war (eg US vs China) when the rest of us just want to live our lives in peace and prosper in what could be an era of unfathomable wealth creation. Instead we live in fear of what these people do as it could send us all back into the stone age if these sick sociopaths get their wars. Or we have to live in constant peril for the new economic downturn due to massive wealth disparity as a result of business-cycle economics that favour a select few and keep them in power. Edit: I really don't care about your fake points, but to downvote in hopes of shutting down conversation is pathetic. I took the time to respond and elucidate my points, you should at least challenge the argument instead of trying to make my words opaque because you don't like me or what I have said. The low level of intellectual discourse regarding Bitcoin here is appalling, and when someone tries to speak about it they get vilified or shutdown entirely, it's sad and I really can't explain how much it's dimmed my view of HN and most tech people in general. But such is the price of successful disruption.

What about ecological impact of fiat currency/current state capitalism? Why not compare that with ecological impact of bitcoin?

minikites 6y ago
I'd love to talk about the ecological impact of capitalism but criticizing capitalism goes poorly around here.
Guest42 6y ago
Bitcoin is an invalid comparison and has a laundry list of cons without very many (if any) pros. Comparing dollars to bitcoins is useless. I don’t have a single bill I can pay in bitcoin and if there was, the fees would be worse than current options. I don’t want to have my salary in bitcoin as its “value” is in a quantum state. Regardless of how loud proponents keep using the same 3 arguments, bitcoin usage will never be the norm.
- pcthrowaway 6y ago
  If you can't think of a single pro of Bitcoin, you may not understand it very well; that's ok , it's complex and new paradigms can take a while to propagate. To be clear, I want people to stop using Bitcoin. There are better cryptocurrencies which don't rely on energy burning to secure their networks, which have negligible fees, and which have near-instant confirmation times.
  - Guest42 6y ago
    What part isn't understood? What is this "complexity" that makes it all worthwhile? I have gone through the white paper and built a PoC including web-app and mobile wallets. I have masters in Math and CS and 10 years of experience in financial services. This thread isn't discussing other "better cryptocurrencies."
    - thebean11 6y ago
      IMO it's not the complexity, or the "how it works" that people miss. It's the larger game theory and societal forces that push the price up. I think it's pretty naive to think that the $1T market cap is accidental, or driven by dumb money.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - pcthrowaway 6y ago
      I guess the "pro"s I'm referring to are how bitcoin is revolutionary. It's still 1st-gen , so it's "old" tech . Sure it's been largely superceded by modern designs, but you were comparing it to the central banking system and dollars.

thebean11 6y ago

So the solution is posting a carbon copy of the same article to HN every other day?

brighton36 6y ago
Why is there even a problem? Everyone needs a thneed.

Guest42 6y ago

Agreed, this should be brought up constantly. If there’s one good thing about the internet, it’s that it is able to highlight important issues and use that attention to make changes.

SilasX 6y ago

Singling out Bitcoin for a problem inherent to all underpriced energy usage won't lead to a coherent framework for addressing GHG emissions.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> Ignoring the ecological problems of Bitcoin won't make them go away. They said the same thing about anti-war movements, of which Bitcoin is a critical component if you understand what is written in the genesis block. Why not say the same thing about needless wars in Syria, Iraqm Afghanistan, Yemen etc... Or the horrible state of unemployment benefit scams (in the billions) and the distribution of it which ends up putting people into homelessness due to sheer imncomptence? You HN's are so toxic about not having made it big with opensource tech disrupting finance that it's just sad now. It's one thing to say you don't understand it, or that it's not for you because you live in the West but to say it has no intrinsic value and yet every major bank is sending us to new ATHs trying to get shows a clear disconnect from reality. This is not just sour grapes anymore, this is Trump-supporter levels of delusion. Get it through your heads: fiat is the problem to most of the World's problems, be it in warfare or environmental to the very notion of the State itself and Bitcoin just solved ~1/2 of the problem. A part of me knows this has to do more with the fact that most of your careers and perhaps existence itself are not as important as you thought they were if Bitcoin wins, and fiat get devalued into obscurity as you have no other desirable attribute going for you, but you should just hedge your bets and join us. We have way more things to solve and not enough Human Capital, if it's money you're after than it's going to be lean for you until you can add value to the network, but it can be done. I did it and so many others have to. And I personally didn't even know how to code when I first heard about it 2010 when it was all just programmers.

snakeboy 6y ago
> It's one thing to say you don't understand it... Okay, I'll bite. Why is 'fiat' the root of all the world's problems rather than corrupt institutions and human nature? I don't even know what that means blame fiat. Something about moving off the gold standard? Didn't we have wars and corruption before that too?
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Why is 'fiat' the root of all the world's problems rather than corrupt institutions and human nature? They enable it, and more importantly it has shown to be able to subvert a population in order to direct it's Human Capital to the most egregious of undertakings: War, genocide, mass murder, bureaucracy etc... These are only enabled because people are being compensated in something they need to acquire goods and services in a region, and since modern existence (Sumeria?) Nation-States have a monopolisitic control over this power, with no tolerance for it's 'corruption' from the outside as challenges it's core power. My contention is: you remove the incentive for fiat and Society and Humanity (as flawed as we are) will re-organize itself for a more optimal outcome. Unemployment concerns will be irrelevant if we as a species decide to tackle Climate Change, Regenerative Agriculture and Mars colonization (I've been involved in all 3 btw) in earnest, so why not build an economy around a tech that can function as a Multi-planetary Currency for it's Multi-Planetary economy? > I don't even know what that means blame fiat. Something about moving off the gold standard? This is rather meandering, but I think you're asking what does Fiat mean, right? If so, yes, it's a currency which at it's core has no intrinsic value other than that what Nation-State's have forced it's populace to accept it as, which has since been detached from it's former Precious Metal Backing. It comes from the latin word 'fiat' to mean: An arbitrary order or decree. A little context: the average life for a currency (fiat or otherwise) is 40 years. > Didn't we have wars and corruption before that too? Sure, but conflict resolution and trade is more favourable outcome for man if the incentives are aligned correctly, and it should be the default for how Humanity should see itself moving forward. We have no chance of solving any of the World's problems if we continue on this path, be it environmental, warfare, political, social, Mars colonization... whatever. Fiat had it's time, it created a level of industrialization and specilization which would have been impossible under a barter system or sparsely traded local currency model, and it was written in blood from our ancestors... but we are now at a transitionary phase which Bitcoin has proven with the test of time that we demand and now have a better alternative than what we are forced to comply to with USD/EURO/YUAN/YEN etc... We are a single species and an ever-growing interconnected one at that, we should conduct ourselves as such rather than serve the interests of a small political elite who seem to be the only ones apt for potentially nuclear war (eg US vs China) when the rest of us just want to live our lives in peace and prosper in what could be an era of unfathomable wealth creation. Instead we live in fear of what these people do as it could send us all back into the stone age if these sick sociopaths get their wars. Or we have to live in constant peril for the new economic downturn due to massive wealth disparity as a result of business-cycle economics that favour a select few and keep them in power. Edit: I really don't care about your fake points, but to downvote in hopes of shutting down conversation is pathetic. I took the time to respond and elucidate my points, you should at least challenge the argument instead of trying to make my words opaque because you don't like me or what I have said. The low level of intellectual discourse regarding Bitcoin here is appalling, and when someone tries to speak about it they get vilified or shutdown entirely, it's sad and I really can't explain how much it's dimmed my view of HN and most tech people in general. But such is the price of successful disruption.