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Apple, Google Both Track Mobile Telemetry Data, Despite Users Opting Out

75 points by LinuxBender 6y ago

stevespang 6y ago
Unfortunately, the only really true safe option is for those who take measures into their own hands - - such as carrying a portable Chinese made GPS signal Jammer next to their cellphone at all times - - which is illegal as per FCC, since the police state wants to insure their "proxies" like Apple and Google can track everyone.
fsflover 6y ago
Somewhat related recent discussion: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS (therecord.media) 798 points by gormandizer 1 day ago | 421 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261.
cute_boi 6y ago
"Modern cars regularly send basic data about vehicle components, their safety status and service schedules to car manufacturers, and mobile phones work in very similar ways" - Google 2021 They started this phoning home concept and now they are blaming other. Looks like Google is trying hard to justify its own system lol. And they should also know Phone and Car are different thing. Just because they use chips/ cpu etc doesn't mean cars and phone are same. Phone contains sensitive data which cars usually don't? And we seriously need more competitors in this OS thing. Andriod and IOS can't be trusted. Hopefully Pinephone etc will succeed so we can enjoy the privacy that everyone deserves.
- prower 6y ago
  That's ridiculous for the automotive industry too. Also, pointing fingers at bad behaviour is hardly a justification for Google's (and other's) total lack of good faith.
- kylehotchkiss 6y ago
  Are there any good resources for finding the 4G chip inside of modern cars and wrapping with a faraday cage?
- mfer 6y ago
  Monitoring people and then selling the data or using it as a sales channel is a way to increase revenue. A lot of companies are under pressure to not just be successful but have constant growth. Following what Google has done is an option company leadership is turning to. A few years ago the CEO of Ford talked about monitoring and selling access to data like FB. By monitoring, I mean things like the ads you listen to on the radio or the radio stations you tune into along with your location. Trying to sell cars isn't enough. > Phone contains sensitive data which cars usually don't? Cars know things like where you go, who you talk to through the A/V system, what radio stations you listen to and ads you hear, and even your conversations (they have microphones that can be used just like those in cell phones). People assume they are in their own personal space when in a car. When in a car alone they think they are private. If the car is monitoring you that's not the case.
EMM_386 6y ago
> When a SIM is inserted, both iOS and Google Android send details to Apple/Google. iOS sends the MAC addresses of nearby devices, e.g. other handsets and the home gateway, to Apple, together with their GPS location. I guess it will be much easier for law enforcement to just get the data from Apple/Google instead of the telcos. Not only would you get the exact GPS location of the device you are interested in, but you can get all the nearby devices too. This seems much more accurate then the old way of triangulating from cell towers. Edit: If this is only referring to the moment the SIM card is inserted, and not with any repeated/real-time updates, this would not be useful.
- boston_clone 6y ago
  While collecting this data still deserves suspicion, the number of times I’ve inserted a SIM card on my new phone is zero. It was done, once, by the carrier rep when I originally bought it. I’m still wondering how that would be useful to LE, or even Apple.
  - AnssiH 6y ago
    Interesting. The number of times someone else inserted a SIM card in my phone is zero, even when the phone was bought from my carrier at a physical location (they just give me the phone in a retail box, same as any regular retailer would). Practices vary regionally, I guess.
- m463 6y ago
  You cannot do anything with an iphone without activating it by contacting apple..
koluna 6y ago
> The phone IMEI, hardware serial number, SIM serial number and IMSI, handset phone number etc. are shared with Apple ... You’ll also be surprised to learn that Apple gets to know your phone number when you set up iMessage. Really? This is basic information they need for operations. I’m all for privacy and not giving Big Tech access to unnecessary telemetry but this ain’t it.
- morsch 6y ago
  What operations? Do users opt-in to these operations?
  - koluna 6y ago
    You opt in when you choose to buy a piece of hardware from a vendor, and when you sign up for a carrier. Apple needs to identify phones that are flagged as stolen. They also need to connect the user to the carrier through their software and hardware, which means they must have a level of visibility as to who the user is.
    - morsch 6y ago
      Not sure (IANAL) if buying a piece of hardware constitutes "freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s wishes by which he or she, by a statement or by a clear affirmative action, signifies agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her" (GDPR). "Consent means giving people genuine choice and control over how you use their data. If the individual has no real choice, consent is not freely given and it will be invalid." and "This means people must be able to refuse consent without detriment, and must be able to withdraw consent easily at any time. It also means consent should be unbundled from other terms and conditions (including giving separate granular consent options for different types of processing) wherever possible." (ICO commentary) Of course, this only applies wherever the GDPR applies. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/consent/what-is-valid-consent/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...
bitmapbrother 6y ago
iOS Collects the following: 1. IMEI 2. Hardware serial number 3. SIM serial number 4. Phone number 5. Device IDs 6. Location 7. Telemetry 8. Cookies 9. Local IP Address 10. Nearby Wifi MAC addresses Android Collects the following: 1. IMEI 2. Hardware serial number 3. SIM serial number 4. Phone number 5. Device IDs 6. Telemetry 7. Cookies 8. Device Wifi MAC address
pulse7 6y ago
Let's be clear: all this is designed and on purpose!
gumby 6y ago
Some of those connections are at user request and are downloads rather than uploads. For example the article mentions safari contacting Apple even if you don’t run it. Part of Safari’s contract is to show you tabs from your other devices, so it will contact Apple to download and cache this info. I believe chrome is similar. I’m not trying to defend either megacorp, just pointing out that there is more subtlety than encompassed by this brief article.

75 points by LinuxBender 6y ago

Unfortunately, the only really true safe option is for those who take measures into their own hands - - such as carrying a portable Chinese made GPS signal Jammer next to their cellphone at all times - - which is illegal as per FCC, since the police state wants to insure their "proxies" like Apple and Google can track everyone.

fsflover 6y ago

Somewhat related recent discussion: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS (therecord.media) 798 points by gormandizer 1 day ago | 421 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261.

cute_boi 6y ago

"Modern cars regularly send basic data about vehicle components, their safety status and service schedules to car manufacturers, and mobile phones work in very similar ways" - Google 2021 They started this phoning home concept and now they are blaming other. Looks like Google is trying hard to justify its own system lol. And they should also know Phone and Car are different thing. Just because they use chips/ cpu etc doesn't mean cars and phone are same. Phone contains sensitive data which cars usually don't? And we seriously need more competitors in this OS thing. Andriod and IOS can't be trusted. Hopefully Pinephone etc will succeed so we can enjoy the privacy that everyone deserves.

prower 6y ago
That's ridiculous for the automotive industry too. Also, pointing fingers at bad behaviour is hardly a justification for Google's (and other's) total lack of good faith.
kylehotchkiss 6y ago
Are there any good resources for finding the 4G chip inside of modern cars and wrapping with a faraday cage?
mfer 6y ago
Monitoring people and then selling the data or using it as a sales channel is a way to increase revenue. A lot of companies are under pressure to not just be successful but have constant growth. Following what Google has done is an option company leadership is turning to. A few years ago the CEO of Ford talked about monitoring and selling access to data like FB. By monitoring, I mean things like the ads you listen to on the radio or the radio stations you tune into along with your location. Trying to sell cars isn't enough. > Phone contains sensitive data which cars usually don't? Cars know things like where you go, who you talk to through the A/V system, what radio stations you listen to and ads you hear, and even your conversations (they have microphones that can be used just like those in cell phones). People assume they are in their own personal space when in a car. When in a car alone they think they are private. If the car is monitoring you that's not the case.

EMM_386 6y ago

> When a SIM is inserted, both iOS and Google Android send details to Apple/Google. iOS sends the MAC addresses of nearby devices, e.g. other handsets and the home gateway, to Apple, together with their GPS location. I guess it will be much easier for law enforcement to just get the data from Apple/Google instead of the telcos. Not only would you get the exact GPS location of the device you are interested in, but you can get all the nearby devices too. This seems much more accurate then the old way of triangulating from cell towers. Edit: If this is only referring to the moment the SIM card is inserted, and not with any repeated/real-time updates, this would not be useful.

boston_clone 6y ago
While collecting this data still deserves suspicion, the number of times I’ve inserted a SIM card on my new phone is zero. It was done, once, by the carrier rep when I originally bought it. I’m still wondering how that would be useful to LE, or even Apple.
- AnssiH 6y ago
  Interesting. The number of times someone else inserted a SIM card in my phone is zero, even when the phone was bought from my carrier at a physical location (they just give me the phone in a retail box, same as any regular retailer would). Practices vary regionally, I guess.
m463 6y ago
You cannot do anything with an iphone without activating it by contacting apple..

koluna 6y ago

> The phone IMEI, hardware serial number, SIM serial number and IMSI, handset phone number etc. are shared with Apple ... You’ll also be surprised to learn that Apple gets to know your phone number when you set up iMessage. Really? This is basic information they need for operations. I’m all for privacy and not giving Big Tech access to unnecessary telemetry but this ain’t it.

morsch 6y ago
What operations? Do users opt-in to these operations?
- koluna 6y ago
  You opt in when you choose to buy a piece of hardware from a vendor, and when you sign up for a carrier. Apple needs to identify phones that are flagged as stolen. They also need to connect the user to the carrier through their software and hardware, which means they must have a level of visibility as to who the user is.
  - morsch 6y ago
    Not sure (IANAL) if buying a piece of hardware constitutes "freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s wishes by which he or she, by a statement or by a clear affirmative action, signifies agreement to the processing of personal data relating to him or her" (GDPR). "Consent means giving people genuine choice and control over how you use their data. If the individual has no real choice, consent is not freely given and it will be invalid." and "This means people must be able to refuse consent without detriment, and must be able to withdraw consent easily at any time. It also means consent should be unbundled from other terms and conditions (including giving separate granular consent options for different types of processing) wherever possible." (ICO commentary) Of course, this only applies wherever the GDPR applies. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/consent/what-is-valid-consent/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...

bitmapbrother 6y ago

iOS Collects the following: 1. IMEI 2. Hardware serial number 3. SIM serial number 4. Phone number 5. Device IDs 6. Location 7. Telemetry 8. Cookies 9. Local IP Address 10. Nearby Wifi MAC addresses Android Collects the following: 1. IMEI 2. Hardware serial number 3. SIM serial number 4. Phone number 5. Device IDs 6. Telemetry 7. Cookies 8. Device Wifi MAC address

pulse7 6y ago

Let's be clear: all this is designed and on purpose!

gumby 6y ago

Some of those connections are at user request and are downloads rather than uploads. For example the article mentions safari contacting Apple even if you don’t run it. Part of Safari’s contract is to show you tabs from your other devices, so it will contact Apple to download and cache this info. I believe chrome is similar. I’m not trying to defend either megacorp, just pointing out that there is more subtlety than encompassed by this brief article.