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> I constantly hear anecdotes about people waiting 6+ months for minor operations in the UK Emphasis on the "minor operations". Things are prioritised by need

> I constantly hear anecdotes about people waiting 6+ months for minor operations in the UK Emphasis on the "minor operations". Things are prioritised by need and urgency, so naturally you end up with a long tail of non-urgent, minor operations. > how the wealthy/elites of Canada fly into the US for treatments There's a reasonable argument here that the US system has advantages for the wealthy. Generally however this is seen as undesirable. > Everyone in the US already does have access to healthcare There's several issues with this statement. The first is that 32.8 million people (12% of the population) were uninsured in 2019[1]. The second is that even if you have health insurance on paper, it's generally prohibitively expensive to use, only kicking in once a deductible is reached that will bankrupt you regardless (40% of Americans can't cover a surprise $400 expense [2] and these deductibles can run into several $1000). The reality for many is that if they're sick, they tough it out because going to a doctor may cause them financial ruin. > above a certain income level you're expected to shop for your own. I much rather prefer that instead of it coming out of my paycheck in another mandatory tax without choice of provider. I'm not sure what your experiences have been, but the only context where I've been able to "shop for my own" provider was when an employer happened to offer one of two providers in their available plans, which wasn't always. Functionally I had almost no choice in my health insurance coverage short of specifically finding a job that offered what I wanted, which given my priveliged position as a software engineer would be possible but would be laughable for most professions. Functionally, my health insurance was a mandatory tax without a choice of provider, it just wasn't a tax paid to the government. I should also note that I now live in Australia, where we have a universal public system where I am still able to choose my doctor and other care providers. In fact, I feel that I have far more choice here than I ever did while living in the US. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-insurance.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-insurance.htm [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nearly-40-of-americans-cant-cover-a-surprise-400-expense/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nearly-40-of-americans-cant-cov...

ajsnigrutin 6y ago
> Emphasis on the "minor operations". Things are prioritised by need and urgency, so naturally you end up with a long tail of non-urgent, minor operations. How long do you wait for eg. a tooth filling? Or if you notice a dark spot on the skin, to get it checked up by a dermatologist? So the minor things, that can get messy real fast if you dont deal with them fast?
- noahtallen 6y ago
  Obviously it would be better to have minor needs met as well. But the point is that when you say “I now have to wait too long for minor things, therefore healthcare for all is bad”, you are implying that you would prefer that you got treatment for a minor condition than someone else got treatment for a major condition. If the main argument against nationalized healthcare is that so many more people can get healthcare that your minor condition gets bumped down in priority... well yeah, the point is that many more people can get treatment for major problems!
  - ajsnigrutin 6y ago
    The problem with minor conditions is, that you still have to pay for them. You pay for dental, but don't get the service. I pay insurance for my car (it's mandatory here - the mandatory part only covers damages on other peoples cars when you're the guilty one). I also pay (extra) for windshield repair, and when a small rock on the highway breaks my windshield, i go to one of the preaproved service centers (or do the paperwork to do it somewhere else), get the glass replaced, and go home after ~30 minutes. I also pay for dental in my mandatory government insurance (no way to opt-out), and when i see a dark spot on my tooth, i call the government dentist, and they tell me to come in six months, at 11.30am on a tuesday. I could wait that long, but by that time, my tooth could get worse, and a simple drill-drill-fill-fill might end up as an extraction or worse. So basically, I either have to pay for a private dentist to do it (full price, not just the difference in price compared to a government dentist), or wait six months and risk it. Either way, i pay for dental, that I don't get. Same for eg. dermatologists... find a spreding dark spot on the skin.. wait six months+ (probably more now, due to the plague), or pay 70eur and get it checked out the next day. Wait six months, and a simple burn-off could be cancer.
    - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
      But thats how taxes work: i pay for schools, and i dont have kids, i dont get a rebate I were to homeschool kids or send them private. I pay for roads and i dont have a car, i don't get a rebate if i walk. Etc.
klyrs 6y ago
I grew up in the US, moved to Canada. Saw a friend wait like 6 months to get an ACL replaced. Poor guy could hardly walk for that time. I've known two people who were told to get an MRI for various reasons... the wait on that is 6-9 months too. One good reason to get an MRI: internal bleeding following a concussion can kill you in days, and a CAT scan won't rule it out. But apparently that isn't a good enough reason to skip the line. Like the US, about half of Canadians are strongly opposed to taxes. Our health care system is about as good as it can be, with the budget we have for it.
TuringNYC 6y ago
I'm definitely for universal healthcare, but one of my worries is the unfairness of an opaque system. Imagine if i'm waiting 3-6 months for an operation as I am for a COVID vaccine (true story!) Our vaccine deployment differs by state, city, county. 30yos are getting vaccinated in a bordering state while 64yos are not getting vaccinated 20mi away. It depends on who you know, luck, bureaucracy, and how lucky you are with your particular county. I'm in Virginia now and no vaccine opportunity yet. Five miles away in Maryland my friends have received the vaccine. Imagine this for every dental implant, sprained shoulder, etc. I'm pretty sure universal healthcare works, but i'm not sure how to get our country to the point where it is at least fair for everyone.

ajsnigrutin 6y ago

> Emphasis on the "minor operations". Things are prioritised by need and urgency, so naturally you end up with a long tail of non-urgent, minor operations. How long do you wait for eg. a tooth filling? Or if you notice a dark spot on the skin, to get it checked up by a dermatologist? So the minor things, that can get messy real fast if you dont deal with them fast?

noahtallen 6y ago
Obviously it would be better to have minor needs met as well. But the point is that when you say “I now have to wait too long for minor things, therefore healthcare for all is bad”, you are implying that you would prefer that you got treatment for a minor condition than someone else got treatment for a major condition. If the main argument against nationalized healthcare is that so many more people can get healthcare that your minor condition gets bumped down in priority... well yeah, the point is that many more people can get treatment for major problems!
- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  The problem with minor conditions is, that you still have to pay for them. You pay for dental, but don't get the service. I pay insurance for my car (it's mandatory here - the mandatory part only covers damages on other peoples cars when you're the guilty one). I also pay (extra) for windshield repair, and when a small rock on the highway breaks my windshield, i go to one of the preaproved service centers (or do the paperwork to do it somewhere else), get the glass replaced, and go home after ~30 minutes. I also pay for dental in my mandatory government insurance (no way to opt-out), and when i see a dark spot on my tooth, i call the government dentist, and they tell me to come in six months, at 11.30am on a tuesday. I could wait that long, but by that time, my tooth could get worse, and a simple drill-drill-fill-fill might end up as an extraction or worse. So basically, I either have to pay for a private dentist to do it (full price, not just the difference in price compared to a government dentist), or wait six months and risk it. Either way, i pay for dental, that I don't get. Same for eg. dermatologists... find a spreding dark spot on the skin.. wait six months+ (probably more now, due to the plague), or pay 70eur and get it checked out the next day. Wait six months, and a simple burn-off could be cancer.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    But thats how taxes work: i pay for schools, and i dont have kids, i dont get a rebate I were to homeschool kids or send them private. I pay for roads and i dont have a car, i don't get a rebate if i walk. Etc.

klyrs 6y ago

I grew up in the US, moved to Canada. Saw a friend wait like 6 months to get an ACL replaced. Poor guy could hardly walk for that time. I've known two people who were told to get an MRI for various reasons... the wait on that is 6-9 months too. One good reason to get an MRI: internal bleeding following a concussion can kill you in days, and a CAT scan won't rule it out. But apparently that isn't a good enough reason to skip the line. Like the US, about half of Canadians are strongly opposed to taxes. Our health care system is about as good as it can be, with the budget we have for it.

TuringNYC 6y ago

I'm definitely for universal healthcare, but one of my worries is the unfairness of an opaque system. Imagine if i'm waiting 3-6 months for an operation as I am for a COVID vaccine (true story!) Our vaccine deployment differs by state, city, county. 30yos are getting vaccinated in a bordering state while 64yos are not getting vaccinated 20mi away. It depends on who you know, luck, bureaucracy, and how lucky you are with your particular county. I'm in Virginia now and no vaccine opportunity yet. Five miles away in Maryland my friends have received the vaccine. Imagine this for every dental implant, sprained shoulder, etc. I'm pretty sure universal healthcare works, but i'm not sure how to get our country to the point where it is at least fair for everyone.