8 ms·

I think you'll be more successful as an advocate for TLA+ if you just say "yeah, the syntax isn't for everyone", or "the tooling has some issues" instead of wri

I think you'll be more successful as an advocate for TLA+ if you just say "yeah, the syntax isn't for everyone", or "the tooling has some issues" instead of writing long missives about how syntax like `[][x' /= x => y' = x]_<<x, y>>` is actually motivated by some deep mathematical insight, or suggesting that the desire for an editing environment that doesn't feel 20 years old stems from a failure to understand the difference between specification and programming.

pron 6y ago
It's not deep mathematical insight, just standard notation, most of this syntax is ~100 years old and already familiar to many; what you wrote is just the typesetting source for: □[x' ≠ x ⇒ y' = x]⟨ₓ,ᵧ⟩ (unicode approximation), much of which is immediately familiar to anyone who reads maths, some of it is standard modal/temporal logic notation [1], and the square brackets and subscript are, indeed a TLA-specific operator; I think writing maths in a less familiar notation would be less appealing and require more training [2]. I did say that the tooling is missing an HTML formatter, which is why some bloggers prefer posting the source rather than the typeset maths. Still, the syntax -- standard mathematical notation -- isn't for everyone, just as Python or Java syntax isn't for everyone, either, and yeah, the tooling has some issues. Also, yes, it is my opinion that if you focus on an editing environment -- which I like, BTW -- for short mathematical texts that you rarely actually edit compared to most other kinds of texts, then you're missing something quite fundamental about TLA+ (if you don't like the editor, pen and paper is another nice editing environment for TLA+; it's also a standard maths editing environment, but it feels more than 20 years old). But that's just my opinion, and you don't have to agree with it one bit, just as I don't have to agree with yours. I'm not the boss of TLA+, nor its official ambassador, just someone who likes it, and you should form your own opinions. You really shouldn't take what anyone else you don't personally know says on the internet too seriously. I do like TLA+ a lot, which is why I'm exited to talk about it, but if you like it for completely different reasons or even don't like it at all, that's perfectly fine, too. My enjoyment of TLA+ or practical gain from it isn't harmed by you not liking it. It is fun to talk about something you like with others who like it, too, but if we all liked the same things the world would be pretty boring. Many people dislike the things I like, and sometimes I even like arguing with them. But it's not my mission to get you to like the same things I do. [1]: That notation is due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._I._Lewis#Logic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._I._Lewis#Logic [2]: E.g. TLA+ functions don't behave like programming language subroutines; using the same syntax might be more familiar, but also more confusing because the text would look the same but mean something different.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  > much of which is immediately familiar to anyone who reads maths Most programmers don't read math. A tool pitched to programmers gains no advantage from being readable primarily by mathematicians.
  - pron 6y ago
    But that tool is mathematics. As far as I know -- at least, that's what things were like in my time in school -- when programmers learn mathematics they use standard notation, not their own. When they use the tool called natural language to write documentation, they also use standard notation, not their own, and when they study diagrams they (at least I) prefer looking at a pictures with lines rather than SVG source. I don't understand why a tool that is used by programmers but is nothing at all like a computer program should use computer program notation, and I don't think programmers would prefer reading mathematics differently from everyone else. I believe the reason this comes up in the first place is that people confuse TLA+'s mathematics with programming (or else why would they even ask something so different from programming to look like programming?). There are specification languages that are, or look like, programming languages; TLA+ came later and is intentionally different -- what's different isn't just the notation but the very meaning of the expressions you write. Why is it different? Because mathematics is simpler than even the most basic programming language -- which has such complex notions like a call stack or evaluation order -- and therefore clearer, and clarity is of the utmost importance in specification. I grew to appreciate that a great deal, and I think that decision makes TLA+ both clearer and more powerful than other specification languages. But you are right -- familiarity to programmers isn't one of it's strengths, but it has many others that, in my opinion, more than make up for that.
    - jacques_chester 6y ago
      So is it for programmers or is it for mathematicians?
      - pron 6y ago
hwayne 6y ago
The syntax isn't for everyone and the tooling has some issues.
- hwayne 6y ago
  One of the reasons I'm so bullish on TLA+ is that "the tooling has some issues" is a fixable problem, and the bigger the community, the more likely it is to get fixed.
- lakecresva 6y ago
  Touche.
sfdjrmw3 6y ago
Do you know TLA+? You sound like you've totally missed the point.

pron 6y ago

It's not deep mathematical insight, just standard notation, most of this syntax is ~100 years old and already familiar to many; what you wrote is just the typesetting source for: □[x' ≠ x ⇒ y' = x]⟨ₓ,ᵧ⟩ (unicode approximation), much of which is immediately familiar to anyone who reads maths, some of it is standard modal/temporal logic notation [1], and the square brackets and subscript are, indeed a TLA-specific operator; I think writing maths in a less familiar notation would be less appealing and require more training [2]. I did say that the tooling is missing an HTML formatter, which is why some bloggers prefer posting the source rather than the typeset maths. Still, the syntax -- standard mathematical notation -- isn't for everyone, just as Python or Java syntax isn't for everyone, either, and yeah, the tooling has some issues. Also, yes, it is my opinion that if you focus on an editing environment -- which I like, BTW -- for short mathematical texts that you rarely actually edit compared to most other kinds of texts, then you're missing something quite fundamental about TLA+ (if you don't like the editor, pen and paper is another nice editing environment for TLA+; it's also a standard maths editing environment, but it feels more than 20 years old). But that's just my opinion, and you don't have to agree with it one bit, just as I don't have to agree with yours. I'm not the boss of TLA+, nor its official ambassador, just someone who likes it, and you should form your own opinions. You really shouldn't take what anyone else you don't personally know says on the internet too seriously. I do like TLA+ a lot, which is why I'm exited to talk about it, but if you like it for completely different reasons or even don't like it at all, that's perfectly fine, too. My enjoyment of TLA+ or practical gain from it isn't harmed by you not liking it. It is fun to talk about something you like with others who like it, too, but if we all liked the same things the world would be pretty boring. Many people dislike the things I like, and sometimes I even like arguing with them. But it's not my mission to get you to like the same things I do. [1]: That notation is due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._I._Lewis#Logic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._I._Lewis#Logic [2]: E.g. TLA+ functions don't behave like programming language subroutines; using the same syntax might be more familiar, but also more confusing because the text would look the same but mean something different.

jacques_chester 6y ago
> much of which is immediately familiar to anyone who reads maths Most programmers don't read math. A tool pitched to programmers gains no advantage from being readable primarily by mathematicians.
- pron 6y ago
  But that tool is mathematics. As far as I know -- at least, that's what things were like in my time in school -- when programmers learn mathematics they use standard notation, not their own. When they use the tool called natural language to write documentation, they also use standard notation, not their own, and when they study diagrams they (at least I) prefer looking at a pictures with lines rather than SVG source. I don't understand why a tool that is used by programmers but is nothing at all like a computer program should use computer program notation, and I don't think programmers would prefer reading mathematics differently from everyone else. I believe the reason this comes up in the first place is that people confuse TLA+'s mathematics with programming (or else why would they even ask something so different from programming to look like programming?). There are specification languages that are, or look like, programming languages; TLA+ came later and is intentionally different -- what's different isn't just the notation but the very meaning of the expressions you write. Why is it different? Because mathematics is simpler than even the most basic programming language -- which has such complex notions like a call stack or evaluation order -- and therefore clearer, and clarity is of the utmost importance in specification. I grew to appreciate that a great deal, and I think that decision makes TLA+ both clearer and more powerful than other specification languages. But you are right -- familiarity to programmers isn't one of it's strengths, but it has many others that, in my opinion, more than make up for that.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    So is it for programmers or is it for mathematicians?
    - pron 6y ago

hwayne 6y ago

The syntax isn't for everyone and the tooling has some issues.

hwayne 6y ago
One of the reasons I'm so bullish on TLA+ is that "the tooling has some issues" is a fixable problem, and the bigger the community, the more likely it is to get fixed.
lakecresva 6y ago
Touche.

sfdjrmw3 6y ago

Do you know TLA+? You sound like you've totally missed the point.