5 ms·

If you're using mullvad you have likely already done a lot of research on which provider you want to use. A lot of consumers are interested in a quality VPN bu

If you're using mullvad you have likely already done a lot of research on which provider you want to use. A lot of consumers are interested in a quality VPN but wouldn't do this kind of research. Mozilla provide additional eyeballs and billing support, and mullvad provides the service itself. It's a mutually beneficial transaction. They're not in competition for your money, they're targeting different demographics.

lucideer 6y ago
> they're targeting different demographics This is the question though: who are these demographics? I know Mozilla likely have a lot more data on this than I, but who is using Firefox / interested enough in Mozilla to read their marketing & research their VPN offerings, but is simultaneously not someone who would research VPN providers in general / use Mullvad? What is this techie/non-techie interested/not-interested hybrid person?
- ruined 6y ago
  that demographic is huge. most people under 40 today have grown up watching the surveillance industry establish itself, and those with any consciousness of their own vulnerability want to take action to minimize their surface area. until recently that's been extremely difficult and technical, but now firefox with container extensions, adblockers, and a VPN are all easily approachable for the average person, and they're all under one brand.
  - hu3 6y ago
    > that demographic is huge. I just asked "who knows what VPN means" in IM group of non tech savvy folks, most under 35. No one knows. Perhaps among us Firefox users that's different but certainly "most people under 40 today" wouldn't know even what VPN means.
    - ficklepickle 6y ago
      Just about anybody that watches YouTube regularly knows what a VPN is. Even very mainstream, non-tech channels have been sponsored by VPN companies. It has died down a bit now, but it was insane for a while. A constant flow of sketchy VPN companies. VPNs are heavily marketed to regular consumers these days. Mostly for region shifting or vague privacy/security benefits.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    > most people under 40 today have grown up watching the surveillance industry establish itself I'm not sure "watching" is the correct word. > those with any consciousness of their own vulnerability want to take action to minimize their surface area This is a pretty small minority, as demonstrated by the number of people that continue to use Google and Facebook properties by choice (refering to their actual services, not their pervasive tracking around the Internet at large) > firefox with container extensions As a more-technical-than-average person, my experience is that attempting to get all Google services running in a specific google-only firefox container is a non-trivial and extremely painful experience, as there doesn't appear to be a way to simply add *.google.com to the 'always open in this container' list, so each subdomain needs to be added individually. And then youtube. > adblockers Adblocks can break the check-out flow on multiple ecommerce sites. "Don't shop there" doesn't fly when that's the only online outlet that has the shoes she wants. What's the workaround? Spend a while working out what's causing the flow to break, and find a way to explicitly whitelist that domain for that site? Nope, just disable the adblock entirely and hope you remember to re-enable it once you're done.
  - lucideer 6y ago
    > now firefox with container extensions, [...] are all easily approachable for the average person I think you might be in a bubble of you think the average person is using container extensions. There aren't even that many average people using Firefox anymore, least of all any extensions beyond adblockers (which still only reach at most 20% in general, including the all round more average Chrome users) <off-topic-rant> Add to that there aren't even any container extensions that work well: the official Mozilla one doesn't support management of domain lists, and the best alternative (Containerise) is still limited and poorly supported (has outstanding bugs with things as simple as the www prefix). As for the individual site-specific options, the Google one is an all or nothing affair; there is no way to separate your traffic within Google's ecosystem, nor outside it: there's effectively two "zones", similar up Private Mode. I wouldn't recommend containers to an average user in their current state
  - kovac 6y ago
    I think most under 40 don't know that Google Chrome and Google Search are two separate things let alone VPNs and containers. When these people say "surveillance" they mean they think that Facebook magically hears it when they say something out loud and they start seeing ads for it. We engineers overestimate the awareness average user has about technology.
    - ryukafalz 6y ago
      > When these people say "surveillance" they mean they think that Facebook magically hears it when they say something out loud and they start seeing ads for it. We engineers overestimate the awareness average user has about technology. Not "magically" - they don't trust their device. And can you blame them? Their device likely isn't trustworthy in so many different ways. Hell, when accelerometers can be repurposed as rudimentary microphones, and when just about every modern device/app defaults to maximum "yes please track me," I tend to be paranoid myself!
      - kovac 6y ago
        This is kind of exactly what I mean too. In your case, you have a clear idea of what might be going on. But a vast majority just don't. They trust the wrong parties and place blame in the wrong places. At least this is the case with the people I know. To give an example, after the recent WhatsApp PR crisis because of the change of toc, I see a whole bunch of my contacts changed to Telegram. They could have chosen Signal but no. They switched from an end-to-end encrypted app to an unencrypted app! That's what paranoia gets you unless you know what you're doing. I've pretty given up on the average user on these matters.
- karmickoala 6y ago
  I'm one of those incongruent persons. Being wary of many VPN services, I never committed to using one, although I really wanted to start. Of course, I am aware of Mullvad and I could still skip the intermediary. However, I trust Mozilla more, as I've been following them for so long. It sounds funny, because I do acknowledge exactly what you're saying. I'm in tech, interested in using VPN for years. I researched some, but was put off if they would mishandle my data. In the end, it will be Mullvad who will be dealing with my data, after all. But now I kinda trust them more after Mozilla. I know it sounds illogical, just explaining how I feel about this.
- mplewis 6y ago
  Anyone who uses Firefox as their browser, wants to start using a VPN, and has not yet done significant research on a VPN.
- ivanhoe 6y ago
  I for one would trust far more to Mozilla foundation's brand than any random small VPN company to not abuse the user's trust or lie about its actual practices. From what I've been reading most of VPNs on the market actually have some level of privacy flows, so it's not such an easy choice as it might seem - especially for people outside of US.
- recursive 6y ago
  Me. I trust the Mozilla name, yet have never heard of mullvad.
- soulofmischief 6y ago
  I often have a hard time convincing someone why Mullvad is better than PIA, NordVPN, etc, because they simply don't know what to look for in a good VPN. At least I can point at Mozilla VPN and make an appeal to authority.
kyawzazaw 6y ago
> A lot of consumers are interested in a quality VPN but wouldn't do this kind of research. In that case, they will probably use NordVPN or ProtonVPN
- CharlesW 6y ago
  Wait, is NordVPN something an educated VPN consumer should not use? I switched from PIA after their acquisition, so now I'm wondering what I missed.
  - Karunamon 6y ago
    They had a pretty wicked breach (for nearly an entire year) a while back: https://nordvpn.com/blog/official-response-datacenter-breach/ https://nordvpn.com/blog/official-response-datacenter-breach..., and I've also heard their rather expansive marketing (the usual youtube personalities) brought up as a negative, but that one doesn't register much for me.
  - ev1 6y ago
    No one educated should be using NordVPN, more or less. At best it might be acceptable to throw a ton of torrents on as long as you don't use their terrible proprietary client. Even the front page is already freely giving away tons of data to multiple analytics providers. Basically any VPN with an affiliate scheme you should stay away from. NordVPN, Ivacy, VPN Unlimited, FastestVPN, etc explicitly, run like fuck. The more "YOU ARE UNPROTECTED REGISTER NOW!" the faster you should run. NB: I am a power user/developer, but I do not use either company. Objectively, a basic eyeball comparison (match bullet point indexes): Mullvad: - Says "Not using Mullvad" / "Using Mullvad" (a neutral statement) - Shows their company address and registered location at the bottom of every page - No on-page analytics - No third party includes - One price NordVPN: - "Your Status: Unprotected" - "Copyright NordVPN.com" only - Multiple on-page analytics and third parties - Loads google tag manager, google analytics, bing marketing, youtube, third party web surveys, zendesk, twitter ad pixel, google ads, bing, cloudflare, ada chatbot, ravenjs, processout, multiple fingerprinting and persistent device identification/tracking services (also performs webgl/font iteration/plugin iteration/canvas fingerprinting, etc) - Repeated upsells, lying to you about price (see JS for fake "sale ends in x seconds" countdown timers that attempt to induce FOMO and more), packed with dark patterns; "9 hours left easter special TODAY ONLY" - same sale that has been running for years

lucideer 6y ago

> they're targeting different demographics This is the question though: who are these demographics? I know Mozilla likely have a lot more data on this than I, but who is using Firefox / interested enough in Mozilla to read their marketing & research their VPN offerings, but is simultaneously not someone who would research VPN providers in general / use Mullvad? What is this techie/non-techie interested/not-interested hybrid person?

ruined 6y ago
that demographic is huge. most people under 40 today have grown up watching the surveillance industry establish itself, and those with any consciousness of their own vulnerability want to take action to minimize their surface area. until recently that's been extremely difficult and technical, but now firefox with container extensions, adblockers, and a VPN are all easily approachable for the average person, and they're all under one brand.
- hu3 6y ago
  > that demographic is huge. I just asked "who knows what VPN means" in IM group of non tech savvy folks, most under 35. No one knows. Perhaps among us Firefox users that's different but certainly "most people under 40 today" wouldn't know even what VPN means.
  - ficklepickle 6y ago
    Just about anybody that watches YouTube regularly knows what a VPN is. Even very mainstream, non-tech channels have been sponsored by VPN companies. It has died down a bit now, but it was insane for a while. A constant flow of sketchy VPN companies. VPNs are heavily marketed to regular consumers these days. Mostly for region shifting or vague privacy/security benefits.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  > most people under 40 today have grown up watching the surveillance industry establish itself I'm not sure "watching" is the correct word. > those with any consciousness of their own vulnerability want to take action to minimize their surface area This is a pretty small minority, as demonstrated by the number of people that continue to use Google and Facebook properties by choice (refering to their actual services, not their pervasive tracking around the Internet at large) > firefox with container extensions As a more-technical-than-average person, my experience is that attempting to get all Google services running in a specific google-only firefox container is a non-trivial and extremely painful experience, as there doesn't appear to be a way to simply add *.google.com to the 'always open in this container' list, so each subdomain needs to be added individually. And then youtube. > adblockers Adblocks can break the check-out flow on multiple ecommerce sites. "Don't shop there" doesn't fly when that's the only online outlet that has the shoes she wants. What's the workaround? Spend a while working out what's causing the flow to break, and find a way to explicitly whitelist that domain for that site? Nope, just disable the adblock entirely and hope you remember to re-enable it once you're done.
- lucideer 6y ago
  > now firefox with container extensions, [...] are all easily approachable for the average person I think you might be in a bubble of you think the average person is using container extensions. There aren't even that many average people using Firefox anymore, least of all any extensions beyond adblockers (which still only reach at most 20% in general, including the all round more average Chrome users) <off-topic-rant> Add to that there aren't even any container extensions that work well: the official Mozilla one doesn't support management of domain lists, and the best alternative (Containerise) is still limited and poorly supported (has outstanding bugs with things as simple as the www prefix). As for the individual site-specific options, the Google one is an all or nothing affair; there is no way to separate your traffic within Google's ecosystem, nor outside it: there's effectively two "zones", similar up Private Mode. I wouldn't recommend containers to an average user in their current state
- kovac 6y ago
  I think most under 40 don't know that Google Chrome and Google Search are two separate things let alone VPNs and containers. When these people say "surveillance" they mean they think that Facebook magically hears it when they say something out loud and they start seeing ads for it. We engineers overestimate the awareness average user has about technology.
  - ryukafalz 6y ago
    > When these people say "surveillance" they mean they think that Facebook magically hears it when they say something out loud and they start seeing ads for it. We engineers overestimate the awareness average user has about technology. Not "magically" - they don't trust their device. And can you blame them? Their device likely isn't trustworthy in so many different ways. Hell, when accelerometers can be repurposed as rudimentary microphones, and when just about every modern device/app defaults to maximum "yes please track me," I tend to be paranoid myself!
    - kovac 6y ago
      This is kind of exactly what I mean too. In your case, you have a clear idea of what might be going on. But a vast majority just don't. They trust the wrong parties and place blame in the wrong places. At least this is the case with the people I know. To give an example, after the recent WhatsApp PR crisis because of the change of toc, I see a whole bunch of my contacts changed to Telegram. They could have chosen Signal but no. They switched from an end-to-end encrypted app to an unencrypted app! That's what paranoia gets you unless you know what you're doing. I've pretty given up on the average user on these matters.
karmickoala 6y ago
I'm one of those incongruent persons. Being wary of many VPN services, I never committed to using one, although I really wanted to start. Of course, I am aware of Mullvad and I could still skip the intermediary. However, I trust Mozilla more, as I've been following them for so long. It sounds funny, because I do acknowledge exactly what you're saying. I'm in tech, interested in using VPN for years. I researched some, but was put off if they would mishandle my data. In the end, it will be Mullvad who will be dealing with my data, after all. But now I kinda trust them more after Mozilla. I know it sounds illogical, just explaining how I feel about this.
mplewis 6y ago
Anyone who uses Firefox as their browser, wants to start using a VPN, and has not yet done significant research on a VPN.
ivanhoe 6y ago
I for one would trust far more to Mozilla foundation's brand than any random small VPN company to not abuse the user's trust or lie about its actual practices. From what I've been reading most of VPNs on the market actually have some level of privacy flows, so it's not such an easy choice as it might seem - especially for people outside of US.
recursive 6y ago
Me. I trust the Mozilla name, yet have never heard of mullvad.
soulofmischief 6y ago
I often have a hard time convincing someone why Mullvad is better than PIA, NordVPN, etc, because they simply don't know what to look for in a good VPN. At least I can point at Mozilla VPN and make an appeal to authority.

kyawzazaw 6y ago

> A lot of consumers are interested in a quality VPN but wouldn't do this kind of research. In that case, they will probably use NordVPN or ProtonVPN

CharlesW 6y ago
Wait, is NordVPN something an educated VPN consumer should not use? I switched from PIA after their acquisition, so now I'm wondering what I missed.
- Karunamon 6y ago
  They had a pretty wicked breach (for nearly an entire year) a while back: https://nordvpn.com/blog/official-response-datacenter-breach/ https://nordvpn.com/blog/official-response-datacenter-breach..., and I've also heard their rather expansive marketing (the usual youtube personalities) brought up as a negative, but that one doesn't register much for me.
- ev1 6y ago
  No one educated should be using NordVPN, more or less. At best it might be acceptable to throw a ton of torrents on as long as you don't use their terrible proprietary client. Even the front page is already freely giving away tons of data to multiple analytics providers. Basically any VPN with an affiliate scheme you should stay away from. NordVPN, Ivacy, VPN Unlimited, FastestVPN, etc explicitly, run like fuck. The more "YOU ARE UNPROTECTED REGISTER NOW!" the faster you should run. NB: I am a power user/developer, but I do not use either company. Objectively, a basic eyeball comparison (match bullet point indexes): Mullvad: - Says "Not using Mullvad" / "Using Mullvad" (a neutral statement) - Shows their company address and registered location at the bottom of every page - No on-page analytics - No third party includes - One price NordVPN: - "Your Status: Unprotected" - "Copyright NordVPN.com" only - Multiple on-page analytics and third parties - Loads google tag manager, google analytics, bing marketing, youtube, third party web surveys, zendesk, twitter ad pixel, google ads, bing, cloudflare, ada chatbot, ravenjs, processout, multiple fingerprinting and persistent device identification/tracking services (also performs webgl/font iteration/plugin iteration/canvas fingerprinting, etc) - Repeated upsells, lying to you about price (see JS for fake "sale ends in x seconds" countdown timers that attempt to induce FOMO and more), packed with dark patterns; "9 hours left easter special TODAY ONLY" - same sale that has been running for years